The following comes from a July 6 story on the site of the Catholic News Agency.
Cardinal Robert Sarah on Tuesday appealed to priests throughout the world to begin saying Mass facing the same direction as the faithful, suggesting that the season of Advent would be an opportune time to do so.
“I believe that it is very important that we return as soon as possible to a common orientation, of priests and the faithful turned together in the same direction – Eastwards or at least towards the apse – to the Lord who comes, in those parts of the liturgical rites when we are addressing God,” the prefect of the Congregation for Divine Worship said July 5 during his opening address at the Sacra Liturgia conference being held in London.
“Dear Fathers, I ask you to implement this practice wherever possible, with prudence and with the necessary catechesis, certainly, but also with a pastor’s confidence that this is something good for the Church, something good for our people. Your own pastoral judgement will determine how and when this is possible, but perhaps beginning this on the first Sunday of Advent this year, when we attend ‘the Lord who will come’ and ‘who will not delay’ may be a very good time to do this.”
Cardinal Sarah’s encouragement to priests to say Mass ad orientem was part of an address on how the Second Vatican Council’s document on the liturgy can be more faithfully implemented.
He began by recalling that “God, not man is at the centre of Catholic liturgy,” and that “we must be utterly clear about the nature of Catholic worship” to be able to read correctly and implement faithfullySacrosanctum Concilium.
I couldn’t agree more with Car. Sarah. For too long some priests have acted as if the Mass is “their show.” This one change will inculcate in the faithful a renewed sense of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. As John the Baptist said, “He must increase, and I must decrease.” Bravo Car. Sarah.
A good and valid Catholic leader. But, please tell us, Dear Cardinal Sarah, why not return to the TLM? It is the N.O. that is divisive. Use one form of worship, the same form that has created centuries of Catholic saints. Catholics worship in Latin, and towards the East, and receive our Lord on their knees, in true praise and thanksgiving. Nothing else will work, Eminence, so please pray hard on this one. Stand up to those that pervert the Faith.
I agree! Too bad Cardinal Sarah also couldn’t re-establish reception of Our Lord on the tongue, once again, kneeling at the Communion rail, even for the Novus Ordo Mass! However, I think it would take a Third Vatican Council, and an orthodox Pope who really believed in the Traditional Latin Mass, and convincing all the Church leaders of the world, to implement once again, the Traditional Latin Mass, worldwide! I don’t think our Pope and Church leaders really believe that way, nor are interested in considering it! It also would involve ripping up the Documents of the Second Vatican Council– scary for them!
Too bad you ignore the fact that Christians have always practiced otherwise: Different litiurgy, different orientation, different posture while receiving. It is a simple fallacy to pretend that these things have always been the same everywhere for any length of time.
YFC, it simply does not matter, the fact that sometimes Catholic practices have been changed, while some are allowed to remain the same. What is most important, is the goodness, effectiveness, and appropriateness, of a religious practice! Change for the sake of change, or for modern liberal “political correctness,” is not a good thing at all! As a good, fellow Catholic, why do you not praise and support sincere, devout fellow practicing Catholics, YFC?? Or at least, ignore posts you don’t like! No one wants to harass and attack you, YFC!!
YFC– don’t you think it is a beautiful, holy, and very appropriate practice, for the Catholic laymen to kneel devoutly, and prayerfully, at the Communion Rail, to receive Our Lord– on the tongue?? Most fellow devout, practicing Catholic believers, would agree! And so, why harass me, on this good and beautiful practice?? Instead, why not silently just say to yourself, “fine, but I disagree” — and then write your own post, on what you believe to be the best practice, for reception of Holy Communion, and what you, yourself, prefer!
I have never “harassed” you about anything, but I do try to correct you when you don’t tell the truth about things like the history of the liturgy, you spread vicious complaints about the hierarchy, and when you say ridiculous things like the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is “junk”. Your word, not mine. If you have actually read my posts about the TLM and about the more conservative practices like communion rails, what I have consistently said is that its fine if that’s your taste, but you shouldn’t go around trash talking other people’s spirituality and practice. You are, quite simply, spreading scandal.
Good for you, Cardinal Sarah! Except– this is not an order from the Vatican, so how many of our priests and prelates, will actually say the Novus Ordo Mass, facing ad orientem?? (Of course, this is not a problem, with the Tridentine Latin Mass, in which the priest always faces ad orientem!) I look forward to seeing this custom, of the priest facing ad orientem, established in the Novus Ordo Missae! It would certainly help make this Mass more reverent, more focused on God! I will try to attend a Novus Ordo Mass, where a priest may try out Cardinal Sarah’s suggestion, starting in Advent– and see what it’s like!
Please don’t hold your breath waiting for “an order from the Vatican” on this.
Linda, does ‘ad orientem’ mean facing east, towards the aspe, or priest and faithful facing the same way? In the city where I live the TLM takes place in a church orientated north and south. Thus the TLM priest is facing north when he says Mass. Previously the TLM was said in another church orientated east and west with the priest facing west.
Yes, JD Cahill– the original direction for church architectural design, was for the priest to face East, when saying Mass! East is also the direction of the Lord’s Second Coming, which we all await, with each Mass! However, as we know, churches were not always built that way, due to many problems! Regardless, the term “ad orientem” means, for the priest to face God, and His altar, when doing his holy work, at Mass, as our “alter Christus.”
The Cardinal’s exhortation is interesting from several points. Most of us of a certain age were confused, surprised, etc. back in the 60s when the new Mass was introduced. It was different land gosh darn, none of us wanted different did we? And then, it became the norm. The Priest faced the congregation, but it was never about him, or man. For the first time we were able to see what happened on the altar. We could see the act of consecration, we could see Christ’s body and blood. We were part of the Mass, not just an audience fulfilling an obligation. Were there some abuses? Yes. Many? Not more than the abuses in the old ritual. A few at most and they were corrected. The Cardinal is out of step with the faithful on this issue.
What is interesting to me is that the altar is supposed to be freestanding to the extent that the priest can walk around it, presumably for the rites of incense. That incense is the prime symbol of a sacrificial altar. Those who prefer the altar up against the wall forget that it can’t be incensed all around. To me, the current position of the altar makes it much more clear what happens on it. Too bad that catechesis-by-liturgy is lost on so many. So I wonder if the Cardinal would like to do away with free standing altars altogether? Perhaps you or another reader can shed some light on that?
The famous passage…
“In every church there should ordinarily be a fixed, dedicated altar, which should be freestanding to allow the ministers to walk around it easily and Mass to be celebrated facing the people, which is desirable whenever possible.”
…is actually in Gen Instr Roman Missal, #299 (year 2000 version of GIRM), which please note, is not the Const. on the Sacred Liturgy (Sacro. Concilium). This is another non-conciliar “mandate” that is not part of Vatican II’s actual pronouncements. Furthermore, the Latin word “expedit” means “it is desireable”, not required. So, free-standing altars, no, are not required, and more importantly, were never mandated by Vatican II.
Just as, by the way, Vatican II and its documents never called for Mass “facing the people.”
You are correct that most of the reforms of the liturgy came after Vatican II. But that is the way reforms in the liturgy have almost always happened. The Pope has the authority to modify liturgies without consultation with the Bishops.
They were not always reforms, but protestations. I saw one gorgeous Catholic church stripped of all its beauty, when it did not need any reconstruction, and by the time the priest got through with it, it looked like a meeting hall — bare and ugly. The excuse from the priest who did it was that the people were “worshipping” the statues and icons, so instead of explaining to them the proper use of the intercession of the saints and taking a few out. he got rid of them.
“…The Priest faced the congregation, but it was never about him, or man. For the first time we were able to see what happened on the altar. We could see the act of consecration, we could see Christ’s body and blood.”
You seem to have an illusory experience of the Novus Ordo in action or perhaps have only had the grace to be attached to a parish wherein the priest hasn’t succumbed to talk show mode. As for not seeing the Consecration or Christ’s Body and Blood, you must not have been paying attention at the TLM. I thought you were an Altar boy. That would have given you a birds-eye view.
What happened? Were you looking out at the congregation instead of at the altar?
Err….. Bob1, you are speaking for yourself? Some of us would be thrilled to have better access to a TLM. It is like heaven VS a NOM which is for some, more like purgatory. I’d ‘settle’ for the TLM said in ‘common’ languages too VS Latin, being practical, if we do not have enough priests who speak Latin. All else reverts back to the TLM. ( Nice dream.) Looked at the english translations of the TLM prayer book lately? Beautiful. Also, do you really think people care about seeing what is happening? Most are in prayer looking down or worse, not paying rapt attention to anything of importance, distracted to put it nicely. So I thank the Cardinal is on a good path.
The Traditional English used in the Traditional Latin Mass missals is far more accurate, too. There is a website by an Anglican Use Catholic priest who tells why this is so. The site is catholicozarks.blogspot.com, and the article is “Traditional English”. It is about traditional English vs Common English. Ironically, according to the article Common English prevailed because it was seen as more aristocratic than Traditional English, though the latter’s accuracy helps prevent heretical teaching..
Traditional English, by the way, uses “thee” and “thou” and “thine”. Common English uses “you” and “your” for both singular and plural, whereas in traditional English “thou” , “thee” and “thine” would be singular only, and “you” and “your” plural only. It makes a great deal of difference when translating from Greek and Latin for less ambiguity and more clarity according to the website. The middle of the article gives an excellent example.
Traditional English, as you traditionalists call it, was simply the vernacular of that day. It is not the vernacular of our day, and to use it creates confusion in the minds of the faithful.
Sometimes I just think you folks like things simply because they are old. Well, you should like me then, ’cause I’m pretty old.
And you should like old encrusted moth eaten vestments, wooden pews rotted out by termites. Tarnished altar vessels and cobwebs, crumbling pews and holey garments do not necessarily bring people into the Church.
Continued……For anyone interested in getting a copy of the Latin-English Booklet Missal for the TLM it is @ ecclesiadei.org for about $7/copy. The web site also has a Directory of all the Latin Masses in the USA & Canada. The Coalition in Support of Ecclesia Dei is located @ PO Box 2071, Glenview Illinois, 60025-6071. Other resources are available on the site. These prayers as Anne T., mentions are not only beautiful but also more accurate. Many other lovely devotional prayers are included in this missal.
Continued……and a Correction. The link for the most wonderful Latin-English Booklet Missal for the TLM is @ http://www.ecclesiadei.org
It is a blessing to pray the prayers of the holy TLM if you are unable to attend a TLM in your area. Many of us, for various reasons, attend the best NOM we can find in lieu of the TLM (due to schedule/location etc) and this brings many a blessing to have handy as a prayer resource.
Bob One, and YFC– Before the Council, Catholic laymen all were well-educated in their Catechism, and the Roman Catholic Church, and her Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, was highly respected, worldwide! All of the Catholic laymen knew exactly what was happening on the altar, with the priest! They also all were very reverent, and in deep awe, of the Mass— Transubstantiation was a very great thing! Many Saints were born, of this Mass– and religious vocations were abundant! Lots and lots of priests and nuns!
The Mass is otherworldly, and MYSTICAL, in character— this has been lost, in the modern Novus Ordo Mass! We do not need to see everything in detail, that the priest is doing! He is doing a great thing for us, as our “alter Christus,” facing God, the direction in which Our Lord comes! At Mass, Our Lord comes down from Heaven, brought to us on the altar, by the holy angels! Altars were all placed correctly, in regards to the priest’s need to go around and incense it, as part of the Mass! The altar in St. Peter’s Basilica, has a different story. Read up on all of this, and you will see! All details were correctly in place, in the old, holy Tridentine Latin Mass!
The Ordinary Form of the Mass is also holy, sacred, efficacious in transmitting the grace of God. That there is a Church today at all is because of the Mass of Paul VI. If you are going to praise the TLM, you should say as much about the Ordinary Form. If you don’t you are bordering on heresy.
A lot of priests are going to be very upset that the show is over!
“Mary the Dawn, Christ the Perfect Day.”
During the apparitions of Our Lady of Fatima, Mary always returned to the east — gliding eastward.
Just think about how the Muslims pray they face EAST with their Imam towards Mecca as we should face EAST toward Our Lord as well. Return the TLM to all of our churches restore the holy orders of deacon and sub- deacon and exorcist, return all communion rails, high altars, statues, Roman and Gothic vestments, Gregorian chant, organs, mantillas for ladies, suits for men, then and only then will Holy Mother Church return to its proper glory!! Again the Traditional Latin Mass MUST return for our souls to be saved.
Bless you for expressing my dream of heaven on earth. Many of us in the pews would love to have better access to even the remnant TLM today. (Which is being ‘barely’ allowed in our diocese.) Do to many factors, we go to the best NOM we can find after shopping around but, except for Jesus waiting, it is more like a little bit of purgatory due to so many factors some of which you list below……
Speaking as one who also attends the TLM and who loves it, I can tell you Janek that it will never supplant the Ordinary Form of the Mass. The OF is the future of the Church. It is in improving the celebration of it that is its redeeming value. The TLM as much as I love it, is ossified. Pope Benedict himself had indicated that the TLM will never supplant the OF; and that is for the good. The best you can hope for is that the reverence found in the TLM be brought to the OF. For that to happen you need your local parish priests to be on board.
And before the comments start, you may keep your Novus Ordo with altar girls, hand shakes, kiss of peace, dancing girls, guitars, drums, protestant hymns, communion in the hand while standing and taking it from lay people, felt banners, polyester vestments, dinner table, lay lectors, we will return to the TLM and all that the saints have given us over the centuries.
For Many of Us – Going to Mass at the Closest Catholic Church is a necessary economy of time and travel. I take a bus to my preferred Church when I can, but sometimes it is the closest place to the “Real Presence” of Christ in the Eucharist, – and I cannot fault anyone who tries (as opposed to those who pass), even if it doesn’t always meet every other requirement.
I was in Church yesterday waiting for Confession before Mass, and no other humans were present. Suddenly a voice called out “Mike – Test” several times.
Turned out it was a Deacon in back checking the microphones.
Or was that all there was to it?
All that is Visible & Invisible, I Believe.
By the way, if one goes go that website that I mentioned before, http:www.catholicozarks.blogspot.com, one can watch the Holy Father, Pope Francis, saying the ordinary Mass facing east at an altar attached to the wall. An excellent article is underneath the video, too. So please do not pass around the misinformation that the pope does not approve of facing east.
On Sunday, the Pope met with the Cardinal. The announcements etc. after the meeting indicated that the Cardinal might be speaking for himself, but not the church. Just rumors as of yet, but pretty will publicized. So, no, the Church is not telling Priests to turn their backs on the people. Read the red and do the black is still the order of the day.
“Read the red and do the black is still the order of the day.” What was that Bob One, a Freudian slip? I think what you meant to say is “Take a peek at the black and do the red however you please.”
Gravey, you would not be the first to suggest that I get things backwards. :) Sorry.
Sadly, priests, albeit out of obedience, are turning their backs on the people when they feign that facing God is a sign of disrespect to anyone.
What a sad and obvious excuse. Turn their backs on the people. Please. Sounds like some sit-in chant to be said with grungy hair and a peace sign.
According to the Ozark website, Cardinal Sarah quotes from the book of Leviticus: “They have turned their backs to me,” 2:27, and he adds, “Let us turn toward the Lord.”
I would add that the Levitical priests of the Old Testament also faced the Lord in the Ark of the Covenant in the Temple.
Leviticus also says we should not eat shrimp! I’m more of a New Testament kind of guy.
There is no connection at all with eating or not eating shrimp and honoring the presence of God on the altar in the New Testament liturgy as the Old Testament priests honored the presence of God in the Ark of the Covenant.
St. Peter lifted the Kosher Law for Christians as it states in the New Testament Book of Acts. The Kosher Law (separating the clean from the unclean) was given to the Hebrews to remind them to separate themselves from the vices and sins of those pagan tribes around them and to keep themselves holy and separate unto the Lord.
Some of it was also for health reasons. Pigs were fed slop, and one can contact disease from such pork if it is not thoroughly cooked.
How about shaving? If we shave are we still cutting off the Power of God, as was held in the Old Testament law?
You really do not want to know, otherwise you would be listening to Biblical scholars such as Fr. Mitch Pacwa who is a Jesuit who actually speaks Aramaic and many other languages.
I don’t know how your response answers mine, Anne T., and I don’t know who mitch pacwa is, but trust me, if there were an Aramaic spoken liturgy that I could get to, I’d go in a heartbeat.
YFC, Fr. Mictch Pacwa is a Biblical scholar on EWTN. He is fluent in English, Polish, Aramaic, Greek Latin, Hebrew and other languages.
You can also go to the on line Catholic Encyclopedia and find the anwer.
You are smart enough to know that, so I do not think you really want to know the answer but just want to be a nuisance.
Even though I know the answer to your question, I am not going to spend time on here explaining it all to you. Look it up.
Thanks for the post, Anne.
Too bad, YFC can’t go to google in a heartbeat to learn who’s who in common Catholic speak. That is outside the everything-must-change crowd.
Grease is the word? No. It is nuisance. You said it, Anne.
I am not saying that I agree with everything on that website as I have not read it for very long nor all of it, but the priest does present some excellent comments on the liturgy and the video..
Let’s all catch our breath, folks. Fr. Lombardi, in one of his last statements as Vatican Press Secretary, announced that there is no direction to Priest to turn to the east during Advent, and that the NO was the main form of the Mass to be used most of the time in most places. The Cardinal was essentially taken to the wood shed on this issue. He will be lucky to keep his job. In true Italian ways, he may be promoted to a job with little consequence or power.
Let’s catch our breath indeed. The fear that anything close to the resurgence of sacred liturgy may be forthcoming is enough for a QB scramble. The Cardinal was taken to the woodshed precisely because HE DID HIS JOB. That is the job of speaking the truth and trying, despite a duplicitous leadership, to keep all appearances of business as usual.
That’s an accent on business, Bob One. Not the vocation and sacred duty of defending and passing on the fullness of the “Catholic” Faith.
But while there are those scrabbling in fear of what horror of horrors could happen if Catholics, en masse, began behaving like educated and faithful Catholics, there are increasing numbers that look at the NEON ARROW they point to their ridiculous…
… pandering. But to who. That’s the million dollar question. But then you said it all with, ” He will be lucky to keep his job. In true Italian ways, he may be promoted to a job with little consequence or power.”
In the way wherein truth always outs, you’ve just revealed that luck and keeping one’s job are too often at the forefront of the mind of those who speak in opposition to what Cardinal Sarah has said.
But your words are good, Bob One. Same goes for the woodshed chat. The smell of FEAR is growing and luck is running out.
Fear of the Truth has given us a very long winter of ambiguous chaos within the Church. The springtime will come when the Full Truth is truly desired. Meanwhile, just like the Israelites, many still prefer a slave’s mentality by holding on to their own created fantasies, *aimlessly wandering* through the hot dry desert.
“Give me an army saying the Rosary and i will conquer the world” – Pope Pius IX
A long winter of strategically designed ambiguity within the Church, will naturally give birth to a strategically planned summer of worldly chaos. O My Jesus, forgive us our sins, and save us from the fires of hell. Lead all souls to heaven, especially, those, who are most in need of thy mercy.
‘Were the Shootings in Dallas Part of a Bigger Plan? Is Martial Law Coming?’
https://lesfemmes-thetruth.blogspot.com/2016/07/were-shootings-in-dallas-part-of-bigger.html FRIDAY, JULY 8, 2016
Bob One = “This will be fun to watch” =The Cardinal was essentially taken to the wood shed on this issue. = “He will be lucky to keep his job.”
This is an age old fiendish kind of “let’s all catch our breath” or coliseum watching behavior. Bob One ignores an important TRUTH. Jesus, was also crucified, by his own. The martyrs and saints were often “taken to the woodshed” by their own. Italian ways will NEVER supersede God’s ways. Heavenly, eternal promotions, will always supersede, the temporary pain or discomfort of an unjust earthly demotion.
“We must not mind insulting men, if by respecting them we offend God.” –
Saint John Chrysostom
Bob One, if you even bothered, and I doubt you and some others did, to read the website I mentioned, it said quite plainly that it was a suggestion, and the Holy Father does at times say the Mass ad orientem himself as in the video. That cannot be denied. The article did not say that every priest would be forced to say the Mass eastward.
When someone states they are one who “attends the TLM and who loves it” and then later “as much as I love it, it is ossified” –“ossified” = a dead fossil— it is simply not credible at all. (“jon”, 7/10/16, 4:52pm). Either they love the liturgy, or it is a dead fossil, it cant be both.
Now by what standard does one come up with this? The N.O. Mass would have no meaning at all were it not for the 19 centuries of tradition of the TLM upon which it is “built”. S. Pudenziana, the daughter of the Roman senator Pudens, received S. Peter about 60 AD and the Mass was celebrated in their house (the site now under the basilica of S. Pudenziana, the church). It is that living tradition, not a fossil, that we believe.
WHether you like it or not Justin K., the rubrics in the TLM are permanent, ossified, unchangeable, and that accounts for its durability. As positive as those attributes are in the TLM, this is not where the future of the Church is. THE OF IS THE PRESENT AND THE FUTURE OF THE CHURCH. And that statement in CAPS in case you miss it, is the main point of my comment. OK? Ok.
I know it pains you to hear the truth that the TLM can never be the future of the Church. But that is plain truth. Pope Benedict himself wrote that in Summorum Pontificum. So O Justin K., the sooner you deal with that reality and that truth, the better your state of mind will be going forward.
Additionally O Justin K., if it weren’t for the Ordinary Form, folks today, most likely you too, would not have any appreciation for the EF. OK? It is the Mass of Paul VI that has made the Mass and the EF in particular understandable, coherent, and accessible to a lot of Catholics worldwide.
Before the OF, most Catholics had no idea what was going on up there. THe priest was doing his own thing, and the rest of the laity were doing their devotional prayers. Totally disjointed. Thanks to the Council, which many of you here unjustly despise, the Mass of Paul VI, because of its didactic nature, made many Catholics aware of what is going on at Mass.
You say that the OF would have no meaning today if it weren’t for the…
preceding 19 centuries. That is a B-minus statement. The A-plus comment is that if it weren’t for the Council and for the Mass of Paul VI in particular, there would be no appreciation today for the EF, because the Mass of Paul VI–due to its didactic nature–has made the Sacrifice of the Mass accessible and understandable to the majority of Catholics.
“Additionally O Justin K., if it weren’t for the Ordinary Form, folks today, most likely you too, would not have any appreciation for the EF. OK? It is the Mass of Paul VI that has made the Mass and the EF in particular understandable, coherent, and accessible to a lot of Catholics worldwide.”
The above is patently absurd. Much like stating that only today to parents understand that children can make poor choices. Sorry, jon, but disrespecting our forefathers to such a degree is just a popular pass time to make us “feel” superior.
Face it AM: if it weren’t for the Second Vatican Council, and for the Mass of Paul Vi, many Catholics wouldn’t know fully what is going on at the Mass. You would be saying your Rosary oblivious to what the priest is doing up there. This is NOT disrespect. This is FACT.
“As one who attends the TLM and loves it”…”As much as I love it, it is ossified” (“jon”, 7/12/16).
In two statements that are not credible and obvious contradictions— claiming to actively participate in and to love a dead fossil—the true mind and heart is revealed.
Obviously therefore why the response is so shrill.
It looks like someone had to consult his dictionary to learn the word “ossify.” In this context O Justin the word also means “to cease from developing,” which is what the TLM is. And the fact that the TLM inhibits variation is a draw for many people, including myself. So, again O Justin K., you are wrong, which is not unusual.
I daresay, if Justin K. is going to object to the beautiful word “ossify,” because he disagrees that the TLM is open to variation, open to tinkering, open to “development” in its rubrics, then he most likely should go to your local Novus Ordo Mass which is NOT OSSIFIED, which is open to variation, open to modification.
So. The NO Mass is open to ceaseless “modification” and ” variations,” as one unwittingly admits. Clowns, balloons, and puppets du jour…Prescribed where in “Missale Romanum” (Paul VI, 1969)? No matter. Do whatever feels good.
Did he really mean to admit that?
Indeed, Justin, the open, open, open mantra negates the reality that something that is, by design, so open to changing will soon, in short order, become something completely different.
Much like jon’s assertion that it is against the magisterium to still uphold the State’s rite to use capital punishment.
It’s brave, new distraction. Much like the big, baddie word “ossify” intended to scare folks because nobody wants to be seen as a firm in anything except their physical appearance which is increasingly mandated to remain forever 25.
O Justin K., you really should take the time to read the Conciliar documents if you hope to reclaim any credibility. Why don’t you read Sacrosanctum Concilium, such as paragraphs 23, 37, 40 for instance. The fact is that the Council, with the approval of the competent ecclesiastical authority, has allowed the revision of the liturgy. READ IT YOURSELF. It is not a matter of “admitting” this on my part; it’s plainly what the Council has in mind. Your saying “ceaseless modification” is a red herring. The Council NEVER said that. Your credibility has plummeted.
Pharisees, Pharisees, Pharisees