The following comes from a May 9 story in the Los Angeles Times.
When Archbishop Jose Gomez stripped his predecessor, Cardinal Roger Mahony, of public duties for mishandling clergy sex abuse cases, a church spokesman said the retired prelate’s life would remain largely the same with one exception: confirmations.
No longer would Mahony preside at springtime rites in which teenagers receive the sacrament that marks full passage into the Catholic Church, the spokesman said.
But three months later, Mahony is back doing confirmations. Since Easter, he has officiated at eight services, including one last week in which he anointed more than 120 youths at a Wilmington parish.
His presence has caused controversy, with some parents threatening to pull their children from the liturgies and at least one parish priest asking that Mahony not attend. It has also raised questions about why Gomez’s rebuke of Mahony, an unprecedented move that won him praise from victims and their supporters around the world, had so little lasting effect.
Gomez’s January letter to the region’s more than four million Catholics seemed to rule out any conspicuous place for Mahony in the archdiocese. Noting that the cardinal had “expressed his sorrow for his failure to fully protect young people entrusted to his care, ” Gomez told the faithful, “Effective immediately, I have informed Cardinal Mahony that he will no longer have any administrative or public duties.”
Rather than recede from the spotlight, however, Mahony has become more prominent. The March papal conclave made him an important figure in a major international story, a position he touted with frequent posts on Twitter and his personal blog. Since his return from Rome, he has advocated immigration reform, his signature issue, and embarked upon what some in the church are calling a “rehabilitation tour” to tell his side of the abuse story to fellow priests. The speeches have played to mixed reviews, with some clerics saying he has a right to defend his record and others all but rolling their eyes.
Under canon law, Gomez had no authority to punish Mahony — only the pope can sanction a cardinal — but he does control administrative assignments in his archdiocese, including the confirmation schedule, and his letter signaled a desire to use that power to limit Mahony’s visibility.
“What he said [in the letter] was, ‘I’m no longer going to let him act publicly on behalf of me,'” said Nicholas Cafardi, a canon law specialist at Duquesne University. In light of the confirmations, he said, “You can certainly deduce that [Gomez] has changed his mind.”
Gomez declined to comment. A spokeswoman said it was Mahony who had canceled his confirmation schedule in January and Mahony who opted to resume it. The cardinal declined to respond to questions posed through the spokeswoman.
Approached by a reporter after the Wilmington service, Mahony indicated that he was unaware the church had ever said he would stop doing confirmations.
“That’s news to me…. I’ve been doing them every week and I’m going to be doing them every week,” he said, adding, “So go home.”
Bishop Thomas Curry, Mahony’s top aide for abuse cases in the 1980s, canceled his confirmation schedule this spring after parishioners protested. Cathryn Croall said she found it “wildly inappropriate” for Curry to officiate at her daughter’s confirmation at St. Jude the Apostle Parish in Westlake Village.
“He took the side of the pedophile,” Croall said. “To have him stand up before children and give them a sacrament just seemed absolutely absurd.”
The archdiocese did not respond to questions about whether any of Mahony’s scheduled confirmations had been canceled, but one priest said he told the church to let someone else handle the sacrament because Mahony’s presence was not “helpful to students and families.” Parents in other parishes have reached out to the Survivors Network of Those Abused by Priests for help replacing Mahony at confirmations, a representative of the group said.
At Sts. Peter and Paul in Wilmington, Jerry Zatarain said he and his wife had different reactions to Mahony confirming their son. “My wife didn’t feel too good about it,” said the Los Angeles public safety officer. “She said, ‘Oh no, what is he doing here?’ She wanted someone else.” But Zatarain said he felt Mahony’s mistakes were a product of the era, not the man. “During that time the church was different — it was just the culture,” he said.
Conflicting signals about Mahony’s status began almost immediately after Gomez released his letter on the archdiocese’s website.
It was posted alongside personnel files of abuser priests the church was required to make public under a 2007 settlement with victims. The elaborate presentation — charts, a question and answer section and lengthy preface — suggested a carefully considered public relations strategy by Gomez, who took over in 2011, for dealing with abuse that occurred on his predecessors’ watch.
Church observers assumed Mahony, who as a cardinal outranked Gomez, had consented to the reduced role, but what happened next suggested otherwise.
Within hours, a church’s spokesman was phoning journalists with a clarification: Mahony remained “a priest in good standing” with full rights to celebrate Mass and the sacraments.
Still, he would not preside at confirmations, the spokesman said.
To read original story, click here.
It’s a Mahony power play. Perhaps in his mind he dreams he can rise once again to power.
The worldwide Church simply doesn’t get it. When someone fouls-up as badly as people like Mahony and Boston’s Bernard Law, they need to be stopped from publicly representing the Church or being associated with it — including the PUBLIC celebration of the Mass.
Mahony was front and center at this year’s LA Chrism Mass. He was the main celebrant of the Holy Thursday Mass at the LA Cathedral (Gomez was elsewhere.) I honestly don’t care about his status as a cardinal. His presence at the Masses was wrong.
Not only does Mahony’s presence antagonize and pain a great many of the faithful, it also makes Gomez look wishy-washy and weak. I lost a great deal of respect for Gomez when I showed-up for the Holy Thursday Mass only to find out that Mahony was the scheduled celebrant.
Similarly I watched the Easter Vigil Mass from the Vatican. During the proclamation of the Gospel, Bernard Law was clearly visible on the television feed, vested as a concelebrant for the world to see. That’s simply wrong.
I don’t need to hear about the privileges of ordination, “princes of the Church” or how neither Mahony nor Law were ever convicted. I (and millions of others) need a Church that is going to stop treating the ordained as if they are above the law, as if they are above acting in an evil manner, and as if their public presence does not cast a terribly toxic pall over the entire Church. They do.
Give them desk jobs at the Vatican or banish them to ministry in isolated monasteries or convents, but please, please keep them away from the public eye!
It hurts the Church!
Well said…
Yes, I agree with you, Canisius. Very well said indeed.
Bravo! More Catholics need to stand up and speak the truth. We can not remain silent on such an important issue.
Pathetic
“So go home”? Ewwwww!
Who scheduled Mahoney to perform the confirmations? I doubt that Mahoney just goes parish to parish looking for work. Somebody invited him. People who don’t want Mahoney to confer the sacrament should not attend the ceremony, or if they didn’t know he would be there, they could simply get up and walk out. if nobody shows up for the sacrament when Mahoney is there, he will get the message.
Disgraced Bishop Thomas Curry is back at it as well. This all sends a horrible message to those in the pews.
When attendance continues to wane, Gomez can wring his hands and “wonder where” all the faithful have gone, before blaming it on the “secular culture.”
But Jesus summoned them and said, “You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and the great ones make their authority over them felt. But it shall not be so among you. Rather, whoever wishes to be great among you shall be your servant; whoever wishes to be first among you shall be your slave. Just so, the Son of Man did not come to be served but to serve and to give his life as a ransom for many.” Matthew 20:25-28 usccb.org/bible/matthew/20/#48020025
Popeasksprayersforpastorsthat they not become ‘wolves’ May 15th, 2013 @ 11:48 am › Tim Johnson
By Cindy Wooden
VATICAN CITY (CNS) — Pope Francis asked Catholics to pray for their bishops and priests, asking God to help them be real shepherds who are poor, humble and meek.
“Pray for us bishops and priests,” he said May 15 during an early morning Mass with employees of Vatican Radio. “We need to remain faithful, to be men who watch over our flocks and over ourselves.”
Celebrating the Mass in the chapel of his residence, the Domus Sanctae Marthae, the pope asked the employees to pray that God would defend bishops and priests from what St. Augustine defined as their principal temptations: money and pride.
“If we follow the path of riches, if we follow the path of pride, we will become wolves and not shepherds,” the pope said. “Pray for this.”
According to Vatican Radio, the pope’s brief homily focused on the initial verses of the day’s reading from the Acts of the Apostles (20:28-29) in which St. Paul tells the elders in Ephesus: “Keep watch over yourselves and over the whole flock of which the Holy Spirit has appointed you overseers, in which you tend the church of God that he acquired with his own blood. I know that after my departure savage wolves will come among you, and they will not spare the flock.”
The pope said the passage is one of the most beautiful in the New Testament, “full of tenderness and pastoral love” in explaining how bishops and priests must love God and the members of their flocks and how pastors and their people should love each other.
“A bishop isn’t a bishop for himself, but for his people; a priest isn’t a priest for himself, but for his people,” he said. They must serve the flock, help them grow and protect them from danger, he said.
“When the priest has this beautiful relationship with his people,” the pope said, love grows between them and the unity of the church increases.
However, Pope Francis said, “when a priest, a bishop, runs after money, the people don’t love him and this is a sign.”
St. Paul is a model for pastors, he said. The apostle reminded the early Christian communities that he worked with his own hands, “he didn’t have money in the bank, he worked. And when a bishop or a priest follows the path of vanity” or falls prey to “the spirit of careerism — which does much damage to the church — he ends up being ridiculous.”
The faithful, he said, have no love for a bishop or priest who “takes advantage, likes to be seen as all-powerful.”
So, pray for bishops and priests, he said, “that we would be poor, that we would be humble, meek and at the service of the people.”
If you want a look at how deeply the rot runs in the Archdiocese of Los Angeles Google ” Msgr. Benjamin Hawkes’ posthumous fall from grace”
Hawkes was the man responsible (quite brilliantly) for turning the archdiocese into a financial powerhouse. A financial powerhouse ruined by Mahony’s shenanigans. Oh yeah, Hawkes is now accused posthumously of being a pedophile — a charge found credible by the archdiocese before it paid out $$$ to the plaintiffs.
The rot runs deep and I’m not sure that Gomez is the man to reverse things, but by golly, everyone’s faith should be strong!
The Old Testament jargon calls it “temple prostitution”.
Instead of administering the “Holy Grail”, they’re hawking the Holy Vail.
“Mahony’s presence was not “helpful to students and families”” is an understatement.
Either Mahony is disobedient to the Diocese Bishop – for whom he works; or Abp Gomez no longer cares.
Mahony also still has a public blog as well.
He has such a big ego (pride), no shame, and certainly does not care about the damage he helped to perpetuate against children or their current well being.
Does he still own his private retreat vacation home and other private property? If so he needs to sell everything, live modestly, and to the best of his ability repay the Diocese the $660 MILLION dollar legal fine he caused due to his hiding abusive priests so they could continue abusing. He needs to repay the money paid to the LA Diocese cemetery fund for perpetual maintenance – which the loved ones of the deceased had ‘contractually’ provided.
Someone from the LA Diocese needs to send this article to Apb Gomez and the US Papal Nuncio to insure they have full knowledge of this latest Mahony scandal. If the Abp does not or can not stop Mahony from all public acts, then its time that the Mahony legal records deemed public by the Court – be made public to the rest of us so that parents and grandparents will know exactly what to watch for when around Mahony. The legal records will tell what Mahony personally believes to be acceptable behavior by abusive Priests.
Personally I would not attend any Mass or Church function where Mahony is present – as a silent protest.
Absolutely correct, Anna, and well said.
I knew all along that the Gomez vs. Mahony rift was just a P.R. ploy. Gomez has kept all of Mahony’s cronies in place including Sr. Edit Pendergast who at least at one time was on the Board of Call to Action. It is getting harder and harder to convince persons to convert to the Faith, but we must keep trying.
God bless, yours in Their Hearts,
Kenneth M. Fisher
This is astonishing, Kenneth. How did you figure that out so early in the game? Most of us were so hopeful in the early days of Gomez’ arrival.
God bless you too –
Maryanne
The bishops judgements lack common sense.
The good old boy mentality seems to guide the hierarchy.
The promotion of LAW to the Vatican was a public relations disaster.
They wonder why the youth are leaving the church with disgust.
The bishops seem to have an aversion to the word -S_O_D_O_M_Y.
Sodomy marriage battle is not about marriage equality it’s about
sodomy equality.
lesbians engage in sodomy?
Yes, sodomy refers to both sexes. By the way, there is no “matrimony” for sodomites. It is called “sodomony”.
So Lurette, what is marriage called when it is between opposite sex couples who engage in sodomy? Care to make up yet another new word?
YFC sin is sin…..no matter how you spell it….But you must learn to distinguish the differences especially on what is concerning the natural law between the sexes….even if two men weren’t committing sodomy, but if they were lip kissing, making out….they are still indulging in sinful behavior…
Before they went to bed, the townsmen of Sodom, both young and old—all the people to the last man—surrounded the house. They called to Lot and said to him, “Where are the men who came to your house tonight? Bring them out to us that we may have sexual relations with them.” – Genesis 19:4-5
The context of this is that, before keeping vigil over the sexual status of every stranger entering Sodom, every man, woman and child had previously been systematically sexually abused and degraded.
We saw the same behavior in our own time. Charlie Manson ran a fear manipulation exercise – they literally called it getting scared. Every member of the Manson family had to be systematically sexually abused, degraded and dehumanized, before he could exercise his remote homicidal control.
What will happen 5 years after homosexualist brainwashing has been thoroughly implemented in California schools. Well, take the already existing SIECUS and Planned Parenthood regime in the schools, officially nastifying our children’s indoctrination. Then add the fact that homosexuality is increasingly accepted by young people.
We really haven’t far to go, until perhaps a whole geographic region, a hemisphere, or perhaps the whole world will see Divine retribution of the same type as occurred in historical Sodom google.com/search?q=Sodom+discovered
Just as in our wicked and depraved society, the liberals are praised and promoted, while conservatives and traditionalists are punished and banned . Look at all the faithful priests and religious who have suffered under the leadership of these wolves, while the red hot heretics are getting honor and glory. A helpful organization has been helping good priests,, and it is called JUSTICE FOR PRIESTS. Our Holy Father, Pope Francis has called those who sponge off the Church as professional bureaucrats; they are not in to serve God, but are only in to gather up earthly treasures and human respect. Cardinal Phony, Baloney Mahoney has done much to destroy the Catholic faith in California. The sooner he is silenced and locked up in a cloistered monastery, the better it will be for the Catholic Church
This has absolutely nothing to do with “liberals” or non-liberals…
R.B. Rodda,
‘This has absolutely nothing to do with “liberals” or non-liberals…”
Not so fast! …. Are you interested in the full truth or agendas? The full truth explains why certain things have taken place. The partial truth masks agendas. R.B. Rodda, Could you or anyone please tell me if Cardinal Law was in favor of inclusive language? I would like to know the full truth, not the partial truth.
Please don’t try to derail this conversation with ludicrous comments about “liberals” and “inclusive language.” Not only is it silly, it also obfuscates the real problems impacting the Church.
RB Rodda writes, “Please don’t try to derail this conversation with ludicrous comments about “liberals” and “inclusive language.”
RB, You were completely silent on this blog about Cardinal Mahony until the LA Times and an outraged majority gave you the emotional support you needed to finally speak up. You’re personal backbone should not have needed the blessings of the LA Times before you spoke out. You used to heartily criticize those who did speak up against bad leadership before the LA Times finally gave you the newly discovered gumption to speak up.
While it is true that Cardinal Mahony and Cardinal Law both mishandled the scandals, Cardinal Law was definitely hated more by progressives aka heretics. He did not have the enablers that Cardinal Mahony has. This is why Cardinal Law is in Rome. You certainly didn’t seem to mind it when Cardinal Mahony was allowing all of this terrible liturgical abuse because you were silent. You only minded when when Cardinal Mahony started to make ALL progressives, (such as yourself) look very bad for his failed attempts at covering up the horrific sex abuse scandals. Then it became time for you to cut bait publicly on this blog. You still seem unaware that you have quite a bit of your own self appointed elitist type of character traits residing within your being when you comfortably call fellow Catholics dullards (stupid). You fail to see how transparent you have suddenly become with all of your newly found courage that has it’s footing riding on the coat tails of the Los Angeles Times with fingers placed up in the wind. Progressive friends such as the Los Angeles Times finally gave you the courage to speak up. The problem is you are the one who is still obfuscating.
Now you are writing and sounding just like one of Obama’s paid handlers for Benghazi and the IRS trying to obfuscate the real root of these scandals which is the smoke of Satan entering the sanctuary. We know that John Q. Public is REALLY on to something when the handlers, the Peolsis and other progressives come out of the silent woodwork to try and squelch the truth when it surfaces. They also use words like silly or ludicrous when the truth is being exposed. The IRS scandal is not “silly” and rampant liturgical abuse is not “silly”. Cardinal Mahony allowed anything and everything during the Mass so he was and still is being protected by handlers, progressives, liberals which are also known as heretics or gullible enablers. The root of the scandals and chaos within the Church stemmed from disobedience and the ongoing debasement of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.
The Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is an anchor of the Catholic Church. The Eucharist is the Source and Summit of our Catholic faith. Through years of disobedience the Mass has been deliberately debased by wolves in sheep’s clothing. There is nothing “ludicrous” or “silly” when you are talking about the great loss of faith and the loss of belief in the Real Presence. If you can successfully debase and devalue the Source and the Summit of our faith as well as the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, then disobedience, error and chaos rules.
I was just told today that a man called the EWTN televised call line a few days ago to say how shocked he was when he recently attended Mass at a Catholic parish in Fullerton California where a woman was acting like she was the priest on the altar. The man said that the woman even elevated the host and said, “This is My Body.” After Mass the man asked the fellow Catholics what was going on and they responded, “Oh this happens here all of the time.” The man did not say the name of the parish. Patrick Madrid told this man that if this was truly the case then yes, this is a woman who wants to be included as a priest and who thinks she is a priest. I do not know if this man was instructed to write or contact the bishop but if the new bishop of the Diocese of Orange has paid handlers that sound just like you RB, then that is another problem that has also saturated many a Diocese.
Next ….RB Rodda writes, “In the end this is all about $$$. Mahony has lived in and around LA for nearly 80 years. He’s long rubbed elbows with the financially elite: Dohenys (oil), Von der Ahes (Vons supermarkets), O’Malleys (Dodgers), Rupert Murdoch, Eli Broad, et. al.”
RB Rodda, You seem to be speaking out of BOTH side s of your mouth. Are you not the same joyful supporter of the greedy power purchase of the endless money pit known as the Protestant Crystal Cathedral? I guess you were not really sincere when you said that you did not want the bishops to act as a privileged group of money wasters meeting at luxury spa hotels but you are certainly in favor of bishops unnecessarily fleecing Christ’s sheep for $100 million (while leaving them un-catechized) to refurbish a Protestant Cathedral. This Cathedral was selected and picked out by another super ego in competition with Cardinal Mahony in their mutually egotistical quest to claim credit for or build the ugliest Cathedrals imaginable.
Last Sunday I attended Mass at a different parish. The priest told the people attending Mass that the Diocese of Orange needed to collect $100 MILLION DOLLARS from the people for the renovation of the Crystal Cathedral. What would the Holy Father say about this wasteful spending when he wants his priests to get out and be more in touch with the poor. Pope Francis spoke against those who only spew out empty words about their theological understanding of poverty without the real actions that show they really do care about the poor, especially in teaching them. The priest who was fundraising at Mass BOASTED that this purchase of land (The Crystal Cathedral) was the fourth largest parcel of property purchased by the Catholic Church. I don’t know if that is true but this is what he stated. Take that incident and add it to the embarrassing spokesperson for the Diocese who was talking on Catholic radio about raising money and refurbishing the Crystal Cathedral. He said that people were questioning him about why it was so important to get the kitchens refurbished and operating on the Church property instead of stressing just as much or more importance on first finishing of the interior of the Church. The man jokingly laughed and then stated that they NEEDED to have those kitchens built fast because they will sell $80,000 worth of churros. WOW! $80,000 worth of churros. IS THIS WHY the topic of immigration takes precedence over teaching the Catholic faith or defending the Blessed Sacrament from wacky women acting like priests so you can sell a train load of churros in order to make a boat load of money. Yes, this man was serious about profiteering from those delicious churros. {Too bad our bishops aren’t as interested in Catholics profiteering from being properly catechized.) That sounded absolutely awful coming from a Diocese that just paid out muti-millions for sex abuse scandals. R B, You call the faithful names like stupid and ludicrous for seeing this historic pattern of incompetence when what should really seem ludicrous is the fact that no one is minding the ship while the Mass continues to be devalued and debased. Thanks to many handlers and enablers of error we now have the devil making a mockery of the Mass right up on the altar and it will continue until our shepherds remember that Christ came to serve, not to be served as elitists bragging about owning the largest parcels of property. Well there you have it. It IS about money. It is about power and bragging rights. The problem is, where do you find this in the gospel other than Jesus throwing the money changers from the temple.
Depends what your definition of “liberal” happens to be, and this could be anything.
You’re so right, Rodda…it’s about good and evil. Your posts were really good and I’m sorry for your sadness…of all our sadness as we see these men making a mockery of the mercy of God and the love that we Catholics have for our beloved Church. They’re heartless and greedy. How I wish they would repent. How I wish they had a sense of honor! How I wish they had a bit of care for those who suffer. It'[s truly scandalous.
You are right, Rodda, this is NOT about liberals vs anyone else. It about acting appropriately in a way that protects children. Mahoney was no liberal. Trust me. But he seems to have participated in a grave evil upon these kids in taking such a strong position covering up for his priests.
I would not receive a sacrament from this man, and I would hope that parents or individuals would do the same. This is the sensus fidelium in action
RB Rodda is not right in this case. He is dodging important realities. The real question here…. Is RB also doing this deliberately? RB has often shown much disdain for those who love the EF. He often uses the word extremists. RB does not seem to have any problem with the EF MASS itself because he has even made very good suggestions as to how the faithful should go about requesting the EF. Still RB has made cruel disparaging comments about those *gossiping women in their mantillas* and this is wrong. It is wrong to mischaracterize everyone who loves the EF based on some personal negative experience with certain individuals who might very well have acted inappropriately.
While it is completely true that both Cardinals mishandled, made terrible excuses and covered up for the guilty, Cardinal Law was MORE earnestly condemned and MORE rigorously run out on a rail because of his misgivings towards inclusive language in the Liturgy. Cardinal Law was MORE hated because he was more conservative. I am not speaking about hated from the victims perspective. I am talking about more hated from the devil’s perspective of destroying even more souls by using the scandals, ( as a leveraging tool of hatred for the reverent and Holy Sacrifice of the Mass) as the vehicle to insight even MORE immediate hatred shown towards the more conservative Cardinal who wanted the Mass to remain holy and reverent. Cardinal Mahony still has powerful support and this is why he is able to do what he is doing. Cardinal Mahony has enjoyed the behind the scenes support of liberals as well as the behind the scenes support of liberal Hollywood not to mention the liberals who he has won over with his liberal policies on immigration.
If you don’t think or believe that 1. Liberal immigration policies 2.A liberal corrupt curia 3. a liberal lavender mafia or the ungodly rage of liberal feminist lesbians had or has anything to do with Cardinal Mahony’s ability to continue doing what he is doing, then you might as well vote the terribly misguided homosexual activists on this website as the most faithful Catholics of the century.
“Mahoney was no liberal. ” we don’t trust you and you are completely wrong Mahony is and was a huge liberal..
You’re absolutely right! Mahony is whatever is best for Mahony. The dullards who try to blame all the ills of the Church on “liberals” simply have no clue.
“Mahony was no liberal”! What are you smoking?
God bless, yours in Their Hearts,
Kenneth M. Fisher
I don’t know if we are lying to ourselves but how can we be so blind as to presume that this is not about a liberal thing?
Just something to think about, I recall RODDA asked me to think before I posted, well this is what I came up with Rodda…maybe it is you who needs to rethink about you originally posted:
1. California is ruled by Liberals…
2. It is considered a very liberal state, liberal policies and it has desensitized even immoral sins, which in fact has affeced common decency and common sense from even our own leadership here….
etc etc……………………. to long a list to post but Catherine pretty much stated the obvious as well.
Well whether you agree with me or not…I am in the middle of it and leaning more towards considering that IT IS pretty much coming from a liberal mentality view that rules pretty much on what is the deciding factor of all this non-sense, scandals that are happening. Remember we are all a byproduct of these modern days. We’ll I am pretty much from this modern day generation….I saw how it pretty much almost sucked me into their way of thinking….all this ugly false compassion.
Somebody feels bad for this Cardinal….I’m sure he is a good charmer at best and gets away with things….that is all it takes for liberals especially since many are running our parishes too….where does this comes from? well we are all affected by the politically incorrectness, some where in there, we are all conditioned to think or view things in what have been filtered in this secular world…
Who rules those values right now? The Liberal agenda, mentality what have you!
Dear Father Karl,
Please ask Monsignor Michael Higgins if he is still in favor of women’s ordination. He personally told me that he was… along with some other people who were present and heard him say this. It is admirable to want to help those priests who have been falsely accused. Initially I thought that this work was completely admirable until I was taken aback by some of Monsignor Higgins conversation which led me to ask him if he thought that women should be ordained. Yes Father Karl, Monsignor Higgins openly admitted that fe thought that women should be ordained. Perhaps he told me that because I am a woman and he thought that it would be pleasing for me to hear. It wasn’t. I was very disappointed. I also understand if someone is being horribly persecuted and someone comes along to rescue your good name then this might not bother someone. It might seem like a peripheral issue but it is not. It demonstrates a private rebellion that has been made public. If someone is supporting injustice to the traditions that we are to hold fast and the teachings of the Catholic Church then their works of justice aimed at helping innocent priests will be greatly compromised. One cannot claim to work *wholeheartedly* for the justice of an alter Christus while simultaneously committing the injustice of serious disloyalty to Christ’s Church regarding the ordination of women. This will not be pleasing to God. Would you agree with that?
Father Karl, I have spoken with several priests who say they were falsely accused. They have been ostracized and treated cruelly. If it IS true that they were falsely accused then I wholeheartedly agree with what they have said. These priests know that they are also suffering for the Body of Christ. They are truly aware of the reality that NO servant is greater than the Master. Out of His Perfect Love for mankind, isn’t Christ still the willing victim held prisoner within the Tabernacles throughout the world? The unique sufferings of these innocently accused priests is STILL bearing good fruit and this good fruit does not go unnoticed by God.
The World’s Hatred. – The Gospel of John Chapter 15
18“If the world hates you, realize that it hated me first.n 19 If you belonged to the world, the world would love its own; but because you do not belong to the world, and I have chosen you out of the world, the world hates you 20 Remember the word I spoke to you,* ‘No slave is greater than his master.’ If they persecuted me, they will also persecute you. If they kept my word, they will also keep yours.
21 And they will do all these things to you on account of my name,* because they do not know the one who sent me.
Catherine,
Fr. Carl has and is suffering greatly because of his orthodoxy. Take my word for it.
Monsignor Higgins may be privately in favor of women priest, so he gave you an honest answer to a question you posed to him; however to the best of my knowledge he has never been a public advocate for women priest, there is a big difference.
God bless, yours in Their Hearts,
Kenneth M. Fisher
Kenneth M. Fisher,
“Monsignor Higgins may be privately in favor of women priest, so he gave you an honest answer to a question you posed to him; however to the best of my knowledge he has never been a public advocate for women priest, there is a big difference.”
Kenneth Fisher that is not correct. Kenneth please re-read what I wrote and what you just wrote. Monsignor Higgins did not just give me a private honest answer. He publicly stated this in front of a small group of Catholics that he thought that women should be ordained. That IS advocating it publicly. There is no difference. By the conversation Kenneth it would have been an omission on my part to remain silent in front of those who heard this. This is why the question was asked in order to clarify the mixed messages that were being sent. Here is another example: A priest informs a small group of Catholics that he believes that women should be allowed to use artificial birth control. Your logic is saying that this is not wrong or not that bad because he was “honest” and as far as you know the priest did not go out on the trail advocating the use of artificial contraception. First of all, it was said publicly which scandalizes and can lessen the resolve for some to adhere to Church teaching. Kenneth, How is one to know if someone is advocating disobedience elsewhere? This is why it should not be done in the first place. It shows a lack of loyalty to Christ and His Church that they vowed to serve. Here is another example. If a Catholic school hires teachers who privately believe in abortion and these teachers share that knowledge with just a few parents then they HAVE advocated the murdering of the unborn publicly. This not only brings scandal it weakens the resolve in those who might be tempted to procure an abortion. In the case of a priest publicly admitting that he believes in women’s ordination to a small group of listeners it is publicly scandalizing those who accept the Church teaching on this issue. Kenneth, This is not like you to justify or enable disobedience to Church teaching. A faithful priest once said that these kind of betrayals harm the trust that one should be able to have in their priests. Priests take vows of obedience to uphold “all’ Church teaching. This priest also said that human nature is weak and people often look for loopholes to justify their sins. An alter-Christus should never be an enabler or vehicle of this kind of justification. It also demonstrates a private rebellion against the Magisterium which does have its effects in the public arena. That cannot be denied. Kenneth Fisher, You have been a valiant warrior but in this case you are sending mixed messages. You have often stated on this blog that you attend Our Lady Help of Christians due to those who do not uphold the faith. I am encouraging you dear brother in Christ to remain consistent. If ambiguity and disobedience are to be defended, enabled or justified, then by your own logic you should as well return to only attending the Mass under the umbrella of the Diocese of Orange and perhaps you have. Kenneth have you not stated that disobedience is the reason why you attend an independent chapel? Also Kenneth have you not often stated that the best way to undermine Church teaching is not by outward or public attacks against the teachings and disciplines of the Church but by silence or by deliberate omission when it comes to defending error.
Yes, Father Karl, you are absolutely correct! Thank you for speaking up even though to take an anti-cardinal position might be risky for you personally. A brave call on your part – and thank you for it, Father.
Why does it feel that we have weak leadership? I don’t even know how to convey what I feel about this. I am trying to say the right things without disrespecting our church leadership, even as a woman, I feel like there are so many men with poor leadership. I am not downing men all together but that is all I see in our church today, more of that, less of good leadership.
Yes they are human, but as a woman I would hope that our men in leadership roles would lead well(not only in faith based organizations, which of course we do hold to a higher standard and should expect better but also in the secular) . I only see a few good men working hard and over worked at doing the right thing, while the others are just letting many get away with things and too many excuses. It does hurt the church when we lack spine and conviction in Christ. I know that throughout the years, while many use to understand what is truly evil and what is not, that today many are having a hard time distinguishing the difference. Much confusion and indifference…not much of common decency either.
Good people are having to question their original way of thinking that was suppose to be good. We can tell by the lack of like mindedness in the church, this indifference is growing. We need to build a personal relationship with Jesus and not take for granted what we have in our faith.
Sounds like Gomez was silenced on the matter.
Maybe the silencer is the corruption ring that bought Mahony, and is now trying to buy Gomez.
Blackmail from the “Lavender Mafia”?
what??? if you are referring to gay people…TRUST ME…we want Mahoney to go off to a cave of repentence as much as anyone. There is no advantage to gay people to keep him in any public post. if he covered up for molesters, whether gay or straight, he is a disgrace to any catholic, and no gay person would want him around in any capacity.
Good comment, YFC. Is your sense that most other gays feel the same?
I would hope so, of course, but because so many of the priests were gay and going after our young boys, one wonders what a gay Catholic thinks of Mahoney, who protected these (mostly gay) priests.
Criminality in our cardinals and bishops is truly stunning, and when these people get away with ruining our beloved Church’s once proud reputation, not to mention permitting our children to be so lastingly harmed, it is stunning yet again.
It makes me sad that Archbishop Gomez is falling into the same “wink-wink” rut as Mahoney. We had so much hope in him to clean things up, and he has failed us repeatedly with his winking and weakness.
“Good comment, YFC. Is your sense that most other gays feel the same?
“Something is rotten in the state of Denmark.”
“The quote is used to describe corruption or a situation in which something is very wrong. There’s a reason Marcellus says “the state of Denmark” rather than just Denmark. It’s the idea of the fish is rotting from the head down. In other words, all is not well at the top of the political hierarchy. After Hamlet hears the ghost’s frightening story, the young prince realizes just how rotten things really are in Denmark.
Maryanne Leonard,
Would you please clarify the reasoning behind your post. That question sure sounded like a plant or an Ed McMahon set up for Johnny Carson skit. Only this time it sounded like an attempt to show that gays can live with their partners and still have clarity about sensing the sins of others while ignoring their own?
YFC rejects the teachings of the Catholic Church and YFC agrees with other homosexuals who reject God’s Natural Law. The Church teaches that we are to show respect and kindness to those who suffer from the intrinsic disorder of same sex attraction but it does not teach that we are supposed to formulate our consciences based on the senses or feelings of *gays* or individuals who are unwilling to admit that they are consistently offending God through through habitual mortal sin. We can never find common ground with mortal sin.
Maryanne, Your post reminded me that a few years ago you also once wrote a very solicitous post and complimentary words about Cardinal Bernadin’s sense of judgement too. Since you are curiously inquiring about what gays sense, Do you still agree with the after effects of the late Cardinal Bernadin’s sense of common ground?
Dear Maryanne – Yes, not only do I think most gay people think that way, I don’t know anyone who doesn’t. Gays are more enraged and have done more to expose molesters and those who cover up for them than just about anybody else. The only time I’ve seen the straight world more upset than gay people was over the Sandusky case.
“If a person repents but continues to live in a chaste relationship with their partner, they are not guilty of mortal sin.”
If YFC or any homosexual individual who repents and is living in a chaste relationship then there would be no need for posting their mortally sinful homosexual activism on a faithful Catholic website. YFC NEVER encourages the Catholic Church teaching on chastity, he encourages rebellion. Chastity to many homosexuals means exclusive sexual relations with their partner which is another false definition of chastity. Enablers of mortal sin defend rebellion and are complicit because of their enabling of the sinner.
Hmm…I wonder if the pedofile priests who molested children so often chose boys because they are homosexuals, or simply because they had more access to boys?
Sort of like prisoners raping other men because that’s what’s there.
After all, in the old days priests had no access to altar girls becuase they didn’t exist.
I don’t understand the pedofile mind, but this question has often gone through my head…then that’s horrible pedofile priest from Ireland in Stockton Diocese who molested girls, boys, and also had sex with their mother!
Catherine you made good points to think about. You have a way at seeing things that surely gets me thinking…you do speak intelligently and I hope Maryanne doesn’t get insulted but only see’s your charity in just trying to dialogue and getting one to reason….I truly love that challenge and you sure brought up excellent points to this blog. God bless you.
Get of your high horse YFC, she was not attacking you….she wants a fair dialogue and personal accountability coming from your part. But by now we should all know, it’s not gonna happen, is it?
You do come on here with your activism to cause hurdles of disobedience on a Catholic website! She is not attacking, she is pointing out the obvious! Lets be honest here and stop using those tactics…it’s not working. What is she gonna do? cry because poor ole YFC felt attacked? What is she gonna do, cave in and support your activism? NO, I would pray never because our prayers are for our salvation, the truth and for our fellow brothers and sisters to follow God and love Him for real not under our imperfect conditions!
IF so,Then we will never be challenged to seek the truth if that is how things went? Your conversation is exactly the same when people refuse to obey God’s commandments! Get off your comfort zone and get a reality check!
If you knows that someone has committed a grave sin, you can say that the sin is grave, but you cannot say that they did it with full knowledge and consent of the will (unless perhaps they tell you this) which would be necessary for the sin to be mortal. You cannot presume that someone commits a mortal sin because you associate another action with that sin. That is the sin of rash judgement. You may be under the impression that some sins are OK for you to commit as long as you intend good from it and you commit them against a person who you fear is in mortal sin in an effort to correct them. No sin serves Jesus Christ. Jesus can bring good from evil, but it is never permissible to commit an evil act hoping that good will come from it. In order for an action to be good it has to be a moral action. Good intentions do not “purify” it. Neither do circumstances, such as distress over the advancement of evil causes in our culture, justify it. See CCC 1753, 1754
“what??? if you are referring to gay people…TRUST ME we want Mahoney to go off to a cave of repentence as much as anyone. ”
YFC,
You suddenly show up on a faithful Catholic website promoting and supporting disobedience and mortal sin (since you admitted living with your partner in a homosexual relationship for over 22 years ) and you have the audacity to expect people to TRUST YOU? YFC your many untrustworthy comments show that you are disloyal to God. When a person is extremely disloyal to God by committing serious habitual sin then his trustworthiness is seriously compromised. Until you repent YFC, you should not even trust yourself or your own judgment. When you continually spit in the face of God by mocking His truths you show that you are not trustworthy. Now for all we know, NONE of what you have stated is true and your real reason for suddenly showing up with the moniker YFC is the intended goal to try and have people accept that mortally sinful homosexual relationships as really being no different than
heterosexual relationships. And if that is the case, you can see why that is just one more untrustworthy action committed on your part.
If a person repents but continues to live in a chaste relationship with their partner, they are not guilty of mortal sin.
Excuse me, Catherine, you are over-reaching by telling Your Fellow Catholic that he is disloyal to God. You don’t know him personally and you can’t make this judgement. You are out of line by saying that he spits in the face of God and he needs to repent. How would you like it if someone told you that they thought you were spitting in the face of God? For all you know, Your Fellow Catholic is also striving to live a chaste life like many of us here. I have also found that most gay Catholics are saddened that some priests abused and exploited young boys and girls. That was seriously sinful and it was also sinful for bishops to cover up and in some cases enable such abuse and exploitation.
Catherine, instead of attacking me personally, once again, how about you try to prove my opinion about gay people being appalled by the molesters and cover-ups wrong. These scandals are covered in the gay press, they are the subject of films at gay film festivals, and they are often exposed in gay blogs and gay facebook pages. Trust me when I tell you that when gay friends find out that I go to Church, I am OFTEN asked how I can go to a church with such scandal in it.
So instead of trying to find an error of logic or fact in my post, you attack ME. Maybe you ought to consult the CCC about your constant attitude of attacking people and about assuming the best motivations in what people have to say.
“Catherine, instead of attacking me personally, once again, how about you try to prove my opinion about gay people being appalled by the molesters and cover-ups wrong.”
YFC, I realize this must be extremely difficult for you. Homosexual activists have been in charge and they have and are having an absolute heydey destroying the Catholic Church from within. They have been exposed though. Now you want everyone to value what the homosexual community at large thinks about Cardinal Mahony? Are you kidding? You can’t be serious! Is that the same homosexual community that does not mind having innocent school age children indoctrinated with homosexual propaganda? Is that the same homosexual community that voted Obama into office in order to gain same sex marriage? Is that the same homosexual community who wants to prosecute parents for getting their children therapy? We wouldn’t know since you never defend or uphold Church teaching, yet you want everything to seem all hunky dory because you say that homosexuals are appalled at Cardinal Mahony. Yes, YFC, your logic is flawed and if you think that your community of homosexuals are appalled by Cardinal Mahony then homosexual communities can hear that we are appalled by the off base selfishness of homosexuals who have promoted such heinous evil in our churches, schools and courts.
You use the word attack because this terminology has been successful in silencing society into accepting unnatural laws. How can anyone personally attack someone who anonymously hides behind a homosexual activist’s shield on a faithful Catholic website? They can’t but posters can certainly stop their activism in it’s destructive tracks before it take roots. You don’t like that. You are simply frustrated because you are not making any inroads with your homosexual activism. Plain and simple. Your sidekick’s distraction about Ecumenism is nothing but more enabling. One can only redirect the homosexual activist back to the teachings of the Catholic Church. If you are ashamed about the fact that the majority of young boys who were molested in the horrific sex abuse scandals were molested by homosexuals then there is one building block in your favor. Defend “all ” Church teaching and you’ll have nothing to debate. Otherwise you are free to start a blog called, “Let’s pretend we are faithful Catholics.”
You asked what the Catechism of the Catholic Church says about those who proliferate sin.
The Catechism of the Catholic Church
THE PROLIFERATION OF SIN
1865 Sin creates a proclivity to sin; it engenders vice by repetition of the same acts. This results in perverse inclinations which cloud conscience and corrupt the concrete judgment of good and evil. Thus sin tends to reproduce itself and reinforce itself, but it cannot destroy the moral sense at its root.
1866 Vices can be classified according to the virtues they oppose, or also be linked to the capital sins which Christian experience has distinguished, following St. John Cassian and St. Gregory the Great. They are called “capital” because they engender other sins, other vices.138 They are pride, avarice, envy, wrath, lust, gluttony, and sloth or acedia.
1867 The catechetical tradition also recalls that there are “sins that cry to heaven”: the blood of Abel,139 the sin of the Sodomites,140 the cry of the people oppressed in Egypt,141 the cry of the foreigner, the widow, and the orphan,142 injustice to the wage earner.143
1868 Sin is a personal act. Moreover, we have a responsibility for the sins committed by others when we cooperate in them:
– by participating directly and voluntarily in them;
– by ordering, advising, praising, or approving them;
– by not disclosing or not hindering them when we have an obligation to do so;
– by protecting evil-doers.
Anony who are you speaking for? Certainly not from GOD. How dare you make such a statement…there is more to the equation…
Tell me what does chaste mean to you? It is not just about the self respect of body but it is also of mind and the way we speak and view things…..that effort is more than just how you tried to sneak in that lecture of yours! It’s more….it’s no different than when someone says bragging “believe me I am humble and holy”….
What is sooooo disturbing is that we speak to these homosexual activist, whether they say they are not or are but the reality they are advocating some kind of immoral sinful approach to getting Catholics to sway away from the truth, what is disturbing is that we ask them for their opinions not as individuals but like if they were a race…..like asking the Jews or Muslims as a whole what they thought about our stand on something…now we have self righteous homosexuals who come on here speaking for all their kind? IS there something twisted here? Praise God I can use my God given gifts to reason and think outside of the box! IS like asking Mexicans how Mexico felt about something(which seems logical to me)…why are we treating homosexuals like they are a race or some kind of identity group or another gender? Being Mexican is not a sin, being another race is not a sin but a person advocating gay rights on a Catholic website speaking for his sinful disordered nature as a whole group, as speaking for all of his kin, his community is….shows how far the gay agenda has gone into getting into our heads and our speech, its so illogical and not reasoning well. It’s like saying “oh lets ask the “gays” what they think? REALLY? How is this different from asking all abortionist what they thought about the Abortion shop, shop of horrors especially when an abortionist also kills babies, just because that abortionist had a cleaner facility and is in a high end area for the wealthy….just something isn’t right! YFC says something about the gay community….really? How twisted is that?
How about just stating your own personal stance on this topic YFC but stop speaking for all the other gay advocates….you are not a race or a country representative. But yes it’s nice that we may share like sentiments on certain things that affect our faith, that is fine but to ask you what the gay community thought about it…simple absurd! Sins against the natural law are truly something not to be glorified nor encouraged and if we have any common decency left in our bodies, we would compassionately not mislead by entertaining their personal lifestyles choices.
Lets ask them as individuals and challenge them to think for themselves but lets not treat their sexual choices as if they need to have an opinion as a whole….there is no opinion just a fact….like with any disorder, we must treat it with logic and charity not entertaining their thoughts as a whole group …lets help them see themselves as how God created them not a group thing…for homosexual disorders are truly complex!
abeca, I will ask Mr. Fisher to speak on this. He said that he and his roommate are hetero and live together without sin but that he knows two homosexual men who live together without sin. But maybe they are not partnered. Maybe they don’t like each other. It is really hard for me to make sense of your post. Are you just assuming that gay men are uncontrollably dirty-minded? I do not think that the Church has ever spoken about a chaste commitment between homo-sexual couples. I think single people should commit to the Lord, but I can see a situation where two people who have no family or where one is injured, ill or disabled may take care of each other and it would be pleasing to God. Since homosexuality is not sinful but homosexual acts are, why would this be a sin?
Anony make sense of my post? Pray about it then…ask Jesus to mold you, to teach you His ways especially on helping you to become chaste….that is something we all need to pray for. Ask Jesus what it means to be chaste….Jesus definition not our own.
Now about your other questions well, I respect you for trying to dialogue with me, so I will try to respond later when I have more free time. But in the mean time pray about it…genuinely, God see’s hearts, I;m sure that if even if I don’t get back to answering your questions in detail, if you pray in the way that is most pleasing to God (and if you don’t know how, then ask Jesus to show you how, teach you) then the answer will come to you only if you are open to it. God bless.
LOL!…trust YFC…
CCD has posted the first page of the story from the LA Times. On the second page, it says that a high-ranking archdiocese official told a gathering of priests that Mahony had contacted the Vatican about Archbishop Gomez’ reprimand and that the Vatican would not confirm that. Click the link to read the rest of the story.
Bad Cardinals and bad Bishops who do not adhere and accurately teach 100% to Chruch teachings in Holy Scripture, the CCC, and Code of Canon Law need to resign.
In severe cases, we should ask the Vatican to request their resignation.
Enough is enough in the USA.
You are right Paul.
Time to clean house, and we each must do our part.
AMEN ANDREW!
The history of the Catholic Church in the Archdiocese of Los Angeles, the largest in the USA, under the scandalous supervision of Cardinal Mahony, definitely qualifies as a severe case. We must stand up for our children, for our faith, and for righteousness in the eyes of God and ask the Vatican to remove this man from the priesthood before he creates and/or allows any more lasting harm to come to us as individuals or as a faithful body within the body of Christ.
Tolerance in this case is not justice for the victims of priests and their supposed supervisor, nor for the poor, nor for the maintenance of our wonderful churches, as this uncharged criminal has damaged the soul of our archdiocese spiritually and economically, to the astounding level of millions and millions and millions of dollars.
Hear, hear! That is the heart of the matter, Maryanne. The fact that he went to the Vatican under the cloud of such scandal shows his conscience is seared and that he has absolutely no regard for Mother Church or fear of God. But, if and when he is finally brought to justice it will simply bring more shame to the Church.
Tell me, Paul, is there ever a time when a faithful Catholic may disagree with the teaching of the catholic Church?
For example, would a man who had been ordered by clerical authority to torture a suspected heretic in 16th Century Spain have been wrong to refuse such a demand?
What about an individual who spoke out against the practice of trial by ordeal in ecclesiastical courts during the 13th Century? Or individuals who protested Galileo’s arrest in the 17th century?
JonJ, in case you are incapable of learning new ideas, you might want to read some of the latest histories and research about Galileo (an atheist wrote a really comprehensive bio of him and inadvertantly discovered the whole story about him was lies) the Inquisition and all the rest of the litany of lies perpetuated by the English protestant historians. Liberals keep chanting the same mantras over and over and it is all lies and often complete fabrications. If you can’t find the time to read these books, at least be still because you sound like an ignorant bigot. I thought you said you were Catholic. You’d think any self-respecting Catholic would want to know truth above all things. We are followers of Truth and the Way. That you are spouting the secular manifesto shows how you feel about our Church and Truth.
PS Here’s a start…a new book out from Sophia Press by by Diane Moczar ; a 500 year history of the Church called, “The Church Under Attack”. And I don’t mean to sound condescending,Jon. It’s just I really get tired of hearing those same cliches’ that pose as truth and scholarship when in fact they’re outright lies retold as fact over and over and over and over until they’ve become accepted historical facts. Please read some of the wonderful new books coming out that not only vindicate our beloved Church, but reinstill a love and respect for Church authority that is so badly needed. Ignatius Press, Sophia Press, Catholic Answers and so many other great publishing houses offer a wonderful selection of biographies and histories. God bless you, Jon.
There is a recent phenomena among some Catholics to rewrite history. Please check out traditional sources as well as the new ones. There is a book entitled “The History of the Catholic Church” by Catholic professor James Hitchcock that I have begun reading that is very good. It is not a whitewash over the troubling things in Catholic History. Very well organized and written.
Well said Dana…beautiful point!
Dana, spare me the Catholic apologetics. First of all, I’m well aware that Galileo was egotistical and going out of his way to show up the Church. It’s sad that the Pope at the time got sucked into a condemnation in as much of an exercise in authority as a matter of faith.
As for the Inquisition, I am also well aware that the numbers of deaths were exaggerated. I also have read the catholic encyclopedia and official catholic websites, which admit that the practice of ecclesiastical courts AND the inquisition allowed torture of suspects. Yes such torture was “limited” to “one questioning session”, but there were also abuses of these limits such as sessions “continued” for days at a time.
I also read the catholic site’s pathetic attempt to justify such actions by pointing out that medieval courts required “complete” evidence for conviction—a confession or eyewitness—and could not rely on inferential or circumstantial evidence. Also on the basis that physical pain in the real world was less harmful than hell or suffering for sins in purgatory. That justification does not address the inherent problem with false confessions to make the pain stop. If enhanced interrogation methods are sinful today, then the Inquisition questioning methods were also serious sin—which were endorsed by the Church.
As for trial by ordeal, I am also aware it was also the Church that effectively put an end to the practice in secular courts by issuing orders that no person under holy orders participate in or bless such activities. None of that nullifies the essential moral error of that practice. The Church used an inherently faulty method to inflict criminal punishment and to find facts in matters of faith for hundreds of years.
Typically, Church courts were less harsh than their secular counterparts. However, even if an accused recanted, confessed, and conformed to Church demands, his property was still confiscated by the Inquisition tribunal. And, interestingly enough, Inquisition tribunals tended to accuse well-off individuals far more often than poor people. Gee—wonder why.
The Church has generally been a force for good, and generally been ahead of the curve vis a vis secular authorities in enacting civilized behaviors. Yet, those truths do not eradicate moral errors from existence.
Thanks Jon. Good post. Her nibs is most pleased !
I’m not exactly sure what you mean by that Dana, but I did read the 1st sample chapter of your cited source. I’m surprised you cited such a blatant apologia. Diane Moczar’s scholarship is a joke, which is immediately obvious from it’s poor reasoning and argument structure.
For example, to address the protestant accusation of Church corruption she says “no” and lists catholic saints and baroque art as evidence that the Church was not corrupt. What a ludicrous argument. That’s like saying Barak Obama isn’t corrupt and citing charitable works done by individual democrat party members and talking about wonderful movies produced during the time. While those may be true, they don’t connect to whether Obama was corrupt.
The most nauseating portion of her first chapter came when she tried to justify Spain’s conquest of the New World. Her account is a complete whitewash. How, exactly, can you morally justify CONQUEST? The corrupt nature of Spain’s behavior can be seen in the fact that Spain stripped all the gold from native hands and seized control of the land. She mentions that the Pope outlawed forced conversions and Indian slavery, but seemingly neglected to mention the account of the Blessed Bartholomew de las Casas’ that these rules were largely ignored by viceroys in the New World.
Moczar’s skewed logic is put on full display when she then attempts to justify spain’s actions by saying they treated the Indians better than the English. Uhhhhh…..gosh, I thought moral relativism is a doctrine that’s rejected by the Church—unless, of course, that’s the best argument you’ve got. Even if the English were indeed worse than the Spanish, that does not nullify the objectively wrong acts committed by Spain—and ignored by the Church.
For example, many Catholics refute accusations that the Pope Alexander VI divided up the new World between Spain and Portugual in the Papal Bull Inter caetera by claiming that document to be a mere investiture of spiritual authority—which the Spanish and Portuguese abused. Such an argument ignores the text of Inter caetera which states (in part): “…and that barbarous nations be overthrown and brought to the faith itself.”
,
Moreover, if the Pope meant Inter caetera as a mere investiture of spiritual authority an instruction to conquer the New World, then why did neither Alexander or his successors ever correct the Spanish King—such as a follow-up Papal Bull telling them that Inter caetera did not grant them the right to seize and rule land in South America?
The fact is, the text of Inter caetera clearly indicates the idea that conquest in order to spread the catholic faith was both moral and good. How is that anything but conversion by the sword—despite Moczar’s assertion that conversions were voluntary (which she makes without even addressing the text of Inter caetera).
What does this have to do with the article and Cardinal Mahoney, and Abp Gomez ?
Yes, Jon J. Those things that are not Doctrine of the Faith need not be obeyed.
That is why the “Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition” must be read and obeyed. It is a true gift from our Magisterium.
The first catechism from the Council of Trent was only written in about 1566AD. And many people were not literate.
And therefore the errors and sins of some Cardinals and Bishops were perpetuated.
With the CCC there is no excuse for perpetuation of error or sin for the literate person.
(BTW infallibility only exists in matters of Faith and Morals, not science, math, or anything else. These are within the purview of the prudential judgment of the Liaity – even when some Bishops sometimes over-step their authority.)
“With the CCC there is no excuse for perpetuation of error or sin for the literate person”: This was Martin Luther’s gambit.
Obviously Cardinal Mahony does not understand the teaching of the Church with regard to judgement day. His day will come! He is not fooling anyone but himself. He is a pathetic old man who should go quietly into the night. He is making a laughing stock of the Catholic Church and Archbishop Gomez. Perhaps
it is time we all contacted the Vatican about the scandal that this rogue Cardinal is causing.
amy,
I already did that by personally visiting all of the Roman Dicasteries while under the sponsorship of the late Archbishop Lawrence T. Khai who knew everything I was doing. As a matter of fact, he had a copy of our report to read before he set those meetings up. The rot is much deeper than you think.
Viva Cristo Rey!
God bless, yours in Their Hearts,
Kenneth M. Fisher
deeper or higher? (I named myself just for you since I know you hate the anonymous thing.) Honest question!
Sure was…Mahony outranks him…even if Gomez told Mahony to stop he would tell him “sorry Charlie, I outrank you”!
Mahony does not outrank Abp Gomez. Mahony has no juridical or administrative authority. His only true authority is to vote for papal candidates. But Mahony continues unfettered in the same ring of corruption which was never exposed, and he is no doubt one of its leaders. These temple prostitution syndicates have ancient roots; their members are upper crust people who have lots of money and power. It’s a microcosm of what these popes have to face. What would you do as pope, if you were told that your “uppityness” would cost the loss of an orphanage or a cloister of nuns or a couple of schools … all with the kids and nuns in them at the time of destruction? Who would you go to for protection?
Skai, “These temple prostitution syndicates have ancient roots.” Where did you get that from, a Chick comic book? I think you get some of your ideas from fundamentalist Christian groups that have little use for the Catholic Church.
Wrong…he may be retired, but as Cdl. he will always outrank Gomez, unless he becomes a Cdl. himself…canonically speaking, it would be very difficult for him to censure Mahony, if Mahony wants to perform confirmation’s, in fact, only the Pope could canonically stop him…go back and check your canon law Skai…I don’t think Archbishop Gomez can stop him…
Skai,
The answer to your above question is simple. If I were in that situation, I would hope that I would go to God and I would do His Will no matter what!
God bless, yours in Their Hearts,
Kenneth M. Fisher
The appointed Diocese Bishop has all control for everything “Catholic” within his own Diocese.
When resignations have been accepted by the Vatican due to age or for any other reason, that Bishop (Cardinal or Archbishop) no long has any authority within that Diocese or any other Diocese unless transferred for the purpose of heading up another Diocese.
If you search the “Code of Canon Law” on the Vatican web site you will also find –
a Chapter on “LOSS of ECCLESIASTICAL OFFICE”.
“Can. 184 §1. An ecclesiastical office is lost by the lapse of a predetermined time, by reaching the age determined by law, by resignation, by transfer, by removal, and by privation.”
Check out Canons 184 through 196 for more info on each of these.
The ORDINARY of a Diocese (that is, the head bishop in charge) outranks everybody else, even if that other person is a retired cardinal.
The only big thing about cardinals is that they get to elect a new pope.
Archbishop Gomez is the big kahuna throughout the Archdiocese of Los Angeles, and Cardinal Mahoney is not.
Pete and Michael – you are correct.
Abp Gomez in completely in charge of the LA Diocese.
He is the boss.
What he says goes.
Miguelito,
My friend, the late Archbishop Tomas Clavel was subject to Diocesan Bishop MacFarlane in the Diocese of Orange. He even told me that he could not do some things because he was not the Ordinary. You are dead wrong!
God bless, yours in Their Hearts,
Kenneth M. Fisher
When a priest or parish tells the Archdiocese that they have teens to confirm, it is the Archbishop’s staff who assign—whether it will be the Archbishop himself or an auxiliary.
Archbishop Gomez is allowing Mahony to confer the sacrament. Sadly, it is up to the parish and the parents to protest loudly.
When Archbishop Weakland of Milwaukee was found to have a boyfriend who he was financing in Palm Springs, he was demoted just like Mahony—–but, when Archbishop Timothy Dolan took over (like Gomez), he allowed Weakland to continue with confirmations. Sick.
Why are good priests not rebelling? Where are our Catholic parents?
When the roots rot, the tree will fall.
The “Lavender Mafia” within the Church. Let us not forget the 300 page Report that Pope Benedict commissioned and was left in a locked safe for Pope Francis.
“How much filth there is in the Church, and even among those who, in the priesthood, ought to belong entirely to Him.” – Pope Benedict.
Let us support our Holy Bishops, and ask Bishops who do NOT do their jobs according to Church teaching to resign. (Church teaching – CCC & Code of Canon Law).
If memory serves me right, the weekend before a specially-called Vatican meeting attended by all US cardinals and bishops, a newspaper quoted an anonymous American Cardinal opining that John Paul II should remove Cardinal Law as Archbishop of Boston. Curiously enough, the story first ran in the Los Angeles Times, and only later was picked up by major East Coast papers. Who could that American cardinal have been? Is it a case of “what goes ’round comes ’round?” Last question: Is Tod Tamberg still the “spokesman” for the LA Archdiocese? If so, nothing there has changed.
Fr. Bob,
If my memory serves me correctly, Mahony even pontificated on how he would be ashamed to participate in Liturgical events if he were Law. Yes what goes around comes around.
I believe not only Tamberg is still in place, but Pendergast as well!
God bless, yours in Their Hearts,
Kenneth M. Fisher
I give up.
Do not give up. All Faithful on earth are the Church Militant.
Stay in contact with your Diocese Bishop.
If after notice, he does not adhere 100% to the CCC, Code of Canon Law, and GIRM (General Instruction of the Roman Missal) – contact the US Papal Nuncio in DC, and the Vatican.
With prayer and with action (the brains God gave us), we can rid His Church of evil – just as Jesus’s example of throwing the money changers out of the Temple.
Sounds like Apb. Gomez flip-flopped on the issue. Sadly, the Archdiocese should brace itself for the prospect of more than another decade of poor leadership.
The Mahoney situation is one of many symptoms of the Church’s rapid decline in recent decades. Here is a new Bishop for LA public telling Mahoney a few months ago that he is persona non grata at any public ministerial function, yet Mahoney defies him and does exactly as he pleases. Either the new Bishop does not have the intestinal fortitude of once again ordering Mahoney to cease and desists his public ministry and make that order stick, or the new Bishop won’t call the Vatican to give the order from the Pope, or the entire public admonishment from the new Bishop to Mahoney was nothing more than public relations gibberish meant to temporarily placate the public.
The Church no longer has the faith and trust of a large percentage of the faithful for many reasons, but one imporatnt one is that Church lawbreakers are confiriming children and being held up as role models.
Amen to everything you said!
To be blunt, I am tired of obviously poor practices and excuses. It’s almost as if the Church cannot get out of it’s own way when it comes to ministering to its people. Instead of changing — improving!, the Church makes excuses, the faithful often make even more excuses and things slowly get worse and worse.
“or the entire public admonishment from the new Bishop (Gomez) to Mahoney was nothing more than public relations gibberish meant to temporarily placate the public” – – – I hope this was not the case, but without enforcement action at Bishop Gomez specific request – one never knows.
It’s past time that Abp Gomez clean out the LA Diocese office of all those supporters of Mahony, LCWR, NETWORK, and those who do not conform to the “Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition” (CCC).
This must start with disobedient Auxiliary Bishops, Diocese Priests, and Nuns.
Pete,
You make it sound so simple, been there and done that. It aint that simple!
God bless, yours in Their Hearts,
Kenneth M. Fisher
Good Cause,
Re.: ” or the entire public admonishment from the new Bishop to Mahoney was nothing more than public relations gibberish meant to temporarily placate the public.” You finally got one right!
or the entire public admonishment from the new Bishop to Mahoney was nothing more than public relations gibberish meant to temporarily placate the public.
It is a crime against the public image and traditional values of the Catholic Church to allow criminals like this narcissistic, rude, arrogant, disgraced man preside at the confirmation of any of our precious Catholic children and returned former Catholic adults. Confirmation is a profoundly serious commitment to Catholicism, whereas the criminal who allowed children to be molested while criminally-minded priests molested them has demonstrated disdain for all of them, their families and future families who will be affected by the child’s mental and emotional damage, to say nothing of the damage to his or her trust in the Catholic Church, and the damage to the reputation of the Catholic Church worldwide by this madman.
If he or any of his cohorts were to dare to confirm my child, I would remove that child from their presence. To fail to do so would be tantamount to approval of what his life has stood for. I don’t believe his arrogance both in general and to specific individuals hurt by him, or his active complicity in the priest sexual abuse scandal, assets to the cardinal’s case on Judgment Day.
He plays the victim and then play acts entitlement and acceptability, all at the cost of first, second and third order victims of priests, as well as the entire Holy Roman Catholic Church, such a vast and wondrous entity that one would think it very difficult to damage; but this man and his criminal priests have managed to do so, without remorse.
No, he would not be allowed to confirm any child of mine! I wouldn’t want my child to spend the rest of his life wondering why I had allowed him to be tainted by the touch of such an unrepentant criminal.
You know I to have give up as well, we all said give Archbishop Gomez time to clean things up and all will be well after all he is an Opus Dei priest. They have not gotten better it is still the same old thing, the education congress goes on as it did with dancing nuns, altar girls, drums, guitars, gay incense bearers, dancing girls in leotards and much much worse. Mahony thinks he has done no wrong that is the problem, I mean really just look at him he has no shame at all. He has a blog, he runs around the Archdiocese as if nothing is wrong, but you who is to blame? the people of the Archdiocese themselves, think about you sit there in your pews and let him perform these confirmations and say nothing??? As for Gomez all I can say is next!!!!!!!
Janek – How many times have you personally written to Abp Gomez, including documentation along with the complaint of abuses? And how many times have you sent complete copies to the US Papal Nuncio in Washington DC?
Documentation MUST include: date, time, and location of the abuse.
Clear description of the abuse.
Quoting the appropriate paragraphs that have been violated in a minimum of one of the following (the more to support your complaint the better) –
1) Holy Scripture;
2) Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition;
3) Code of Canon Law;
4) GIRM (General Instruction of the Roman Missal).
The CCC, Code of Canon Law, and GIRM can all be found on the Vatican web site.
For official Church links directly to these, on the net go to: “What Catholics REALLY Believe SOURCE”.
(My only concern is that some staff persons of some Bishops many intercept complaints and deep six them. There are those who work in Diocese offices who are not trustworthy.)
MIKE, apparently you believe that God does not inform Abp Gomez of anything at all. But of course you’ve been catechized by the “Jesus from below” program that came from the Protestants and was hyped up by the Jesuits. And so this explains why you and many believe that bishops do not act because no one is telling them what is going on and what to do about it. How are you going to survive when the real deception comes along, when you cannot even understand this fairly easy deception?
Skai – your attributes to me are false. This has nothing to do with Protestantism. You seem to want everyone to adhere to your own personal version of what the Church should be. The Church according to Skai.
Apparently you have never heard of documenting a case. A Bishop is innocent until proven guilty, and must be given benefit of the doubt – like all others. I prefer not to assume they are guilty without giving them a chance to take care of a legitimate problem.
Including the US Papal Nuncio and the Vatican in copies – takes care of those who are merely lazy or disobedient to Church teachings.
MIKE in Skai’s defense, I can see somewhat what he says on certain comments that he asks for clarity on. For instance remember Jesus was a Jew…his own Jewish were the ones who ordered for him to be Crucified. They called him a heretic and more etc…
Sometimes from within our own church we have those who taken upon themselves to preach a false God while throwing the book on people, not saying that you are or anyone here, but we can come of almost like the Protestants who preach solo scriptural. We have to be careful not to carry that tone as if the CCC is the ONE….it’s a good tool, we don’t argue that but not THE ONE. I hope I convey well…I’m not too good as conveying…whew…
SKAI – you seem to keep forgetting Jesus’s words in Mt 16 18:19,
and Jn 20 23. Please read them very carefully and several times before posting again. Jesus gave amazing power to His Church which you do not seem to remember.
These are required Church teachings fr0m HIS Church:
1) Holy Scripture;
2) Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition;
3) Code of Canon Law;
4) GIRM (General Instruction of the Roman Missal).
There are some Bishops that do not do their main jobs of teaching accurately and fully. This is why Pope John Paul II, Pope Benedict and now Pope Francis urge us to read Scripture and the CCC.
“In this Year of Faith let us ask ourselves if we have actually taken a few steps to get to know Christ and the truths of faith more, by reading and meditating on the Scriptures, studying the Catechism, steadily approaching the Sacraments.” – Pope Francis, May 15, 2013.
Mike,
How many times have you done what you expect others to do?
God bless, yours in Their Hearts,
Kenneth M. Fisher
Well letters were sent on other things, what Mahony did in my younger years, well to be honest I just learned of these scandals about him these past few years especially reading about them in these types of informative Catholic websites.
I’m sure that if MIKE is encouraging others to continue writing, I’m sure he is also doing what he encouraging. Skai I think he already knows that but he just wants to encourage us to put more pressure on our church leadership to do what is right. I’m thinking that is what he is trying to encourage.
The more pressure and more letters with also not giving them money, they will hopefully someday get it but most important we must pray! Our church leadership are not all blind about what is happening but I wonder if they are in denial or for whatever reason, they sure lack to act. God have mercy on us….something bigger is not seen believe the surface….we need to continue to seek to be holy, to continue to pray, for only our Lord knows what exactly needs to happen since He see’s all and knows all.
Mr. Fisher, – using the formula in my recommendation posted May 17, 8:32am – the answer is FREQUENTLY. And with some success. :)
In addition, I have 4 Archbishops, 6 Bishops, and one Cardinal, and the US Papal Nuncio on my personal email list as well.
(Unfortunately, I don’t live in CA, so verification and documentation are more difficult for me in your State.)
Unless it affects the entire Church such as something from the USCCB, etc., Catholics will have to stand up and politely demand that abuses are stopped within the Church – whether it be their own Parish, Diocese or Statewide.
When there are any kinds of abuses, you can bet that the person performing the abuses will have many excuses as to why his action is appropriate. This is why using official Church documents when voicing a complaint is necessary – to nip illegitimate excuses in the bud, and to insure that the appropriate Diocese Bishop pays attention to legitimate complaints.
The internet plays a good role in helping us to help each other – quickly, and to expose abuses that need the attention of the Bishop and when necessary – the US Papal Nuncio and the Vatican.
Never assume that Diocese Bishops know everything that takes place within their own Diocese.
(We all know what “assume” means. :) )
CA Catholics have to stand up for the truths of the Church within our own State.
All of us need to stand up to the USCCB and abuses that effect the entire world.
Thanks to the internet exposure and Catholics demanding that Church teachings be upheld, the CCHD is being brought under control and Pope Benedict approved the legislation “On the SERVICE of CHARITY”. The ‘National Catholic REPORTER’ has been again exposed by the appropriate Diocese Bishop as a heretical and schismatic newspaper. Our Popes are finding out that some Bishops do not teach accurately and fully according to the Church – so the Magisterium gave us the CCC and our Popes are urging us to study it.
But there is much to do in the USA, and we all must remain vigilant and do our jobs too.
yip that is true MIKE. IF we don’t live in the area, it’s not always so easy to jump in complain in regards to what is affecting that parish, the very parisheners are the ones that need to be encouraged to write their concerns since it is affecting them personally…..there have been a few times that I did complain about certain abuses from facts that we received about other parishes but because there were concrete concerns.
The “Now go home” remark to the reporter is about as arrogant as could be.
“And he said: Come. And Peter going down out of the boat, walked upon the water to come to Jesus. ” Matthew 14:29
We can walk on water but many much many of us doubt and then fall in…..when things seem tough how many of us cave in? Why did Mahony cave in and when did he forget his calling.
“But seeing the wind strong, he was afraid: and when he began to sink, he cried out, saying: Lord, save me.” Matthew 14:30
I wish more and more people would genuinely ask our Lord to save them. As individuals we can sink, some just submit to the drowning but are too proud to ask our Lord to save them. Are we forgetting that we are nothing without our Lord? All goodness comes from Him only!
That’s been my prayer, Abeca. Think of all of those who have opened doors to evil in their lives, often unknowingly, with seemingly innocent pastimes like having their fortunes told, going to seances, playing on the ouija board, using I Ching, taking mind altering drugs, etc. These are pathways to dark powers that can eventually destroy the person. CS Lewis lost a very close friend who’d gotten deeply involved in Yoga and eventually it lead him to suicide. I personally have known many people whose lives were forever altered by dabbling in seemingly harmless pastimes. These cardinals came in contact with from all I’ve read was a really evil person, Cardinal Bernardin, and he could have greatly influenced these men. As Christians we are called to pray for these seemingly lost souls…it could be us. I have been harsh in my judgements of these and others and recently have been confronting some home truths. We’re frustrated and angry, which is only natural, but we’re not dealing with anything natural but as Paul wrote in Ephesians, “For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities , against powers , against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.” We’re in spiritual warfare, and we need to pray for our bishops and cardinals as they face untold temptations and pressures. Padre Pio, Catherine of Siena and so many other saints, had to strive constantly with dark forces. Without the love and mercy of God we’d all be lost. I pray for God’s will to be done and for satan to be bound and his works undone in the lives of these men.
AMEN Dana!
Cdl. Mahony lives in a cozy little world of rationalization and denial…any person, of such a noble office within the Church, who has acted with such poor powers of discernment, needs to be shunned…spurned…Once he has shown contrition for his crimes of ignominy…he should be tolerated…mind you, not valued or esteemed…just tolerated, nothing more nothing less…Until he is able to articulate this, and express contrition, he needs to be spurned…rejected… viewed as a pariah in the community, if you will.
Is is impossible for the LA Archdiocese to have any credibility when you have the circus they call a “Mass” at the LA Religious Education Congress. Add all the scandals, lies, heterodoxy, ugly Cathedral, paucity of the TLM and it is no surprise the Faith is diminishing in the Archdiocese. May Our Lord have mercy upon us and strengthen us in these dark times. +JMJ+
Only the Pope can officially censure Cdl. Mahony…and indeed, he “DOES” outrank Archbishop Gomez…in fact, the confirmation’s are all valid and licit, and nobody but the pope himself can censure Cdl. Mahony from performing any of his priestly duties, which he was never stripped of. Cdl. Mahony remains a member in good standing, and made some dreadful mistakes in the pat. Still, he is one of God’s children, and a Cdl in the Catholic Church…, I’m sure he feels dreadful, over his horrific past mistakes…
You are absolutely wrong. Abp Gomez has full authority within the LA Diocese per the Code of Canon Law.
Try reading it on the Vatican web site.
Also try reading the CCC – regarding the duties of the Diocese Bishop.
___________
Mahony only has the right to say private Masses, because he has not been stripped of his Priesthood, and he has the right to participate in Cardinal functions only at the Vatican such as selecting a new Pope.
_______________________
He has no rights within the LA Diocese – unless he receives permission from the Pope appointed Diocese Bishop – Abp Gomez.
Anonymous, when are you going to realize that the Code of Canon law has zero authority? Jesus Christ put the authority in St Peter and thus through the bishops in communion with him. You’re no doubt one of those people who believe that guns walk around shooting people; new, Anonymous, is the 24/7 video focused on the loaded handgun, after months and months, so far has revealed that that handgun has not moved or even twitched. Same with any book you can name, even the Bible. It has zero authority. Jesus says in the Gospel, that all authority under Heaven has been given to Him. And He gave it to St Peter to exercise on earth. But, go ahead, Anonymous, make my day and provide some evidence that the Code of Canon Law has got itself out of the book case, and is running around authorizing one thing or another.
Skai – you are bordering on being a schismatic. The Code of Canon Law has been promulgated under Apostolic authority.
It has great authority within the Church.
You must have forgotten the words of Jesus when he appointed Peter to head His Church on earth:
Mt 16:18-19
“And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”
Skai it is as simple as MIKE has stated but not always understood by some. Lets pray about this one…
The Bible is not God. Canon Law is not God. CCC2nd edition is not God. To impute authority to these things is to commit idolatry. God is the ultimate authority. the word “authority” comes from the word “author”. Laws, and doctrines are not authors, because without human beings or God, they have no meaning. It is God through humans who has and is authority. The device used by Luther and Calvin to create Protestantism was imputing the Bible as the ultimate authority, likening it to God. Jesus placed authority in the popes, not in documents.
Skai maybe wording things in a different way may help your case. The bible is the word of God, the CCC is the teachings of the faith to a degree….perhaps what you say is true when you have some throw their CCC on people but I don’t think their actions spell that they are worshiping a book or something but a tool that is used to represent the faith, Jesus is the faith….the church is His body.
Now you are the body of Christ, and members of member. 1 Corinthians 12:27
1 Corinthians 12:12 “Just as a body, though one, has many parts, but all its many parts form one body, so it is with Christ.”
You make good arguments about Protestantism but good devout Catholics can use tools to help spread the mission of the church….I know some do it probably also in a way that conveys less acts of charity at times as if they throwing a law but it’s still a tool and can be a good one when used properly.
Some of the things you say here can be misinterpreted in the wrong my brother, I think that at least you need to acknowledge where they used the truth and then maybe if it came off wrong you can point that part out but just quoting certain CCC or scripture passage doesn’t always dictate that they are following a man made book, they are using a tool approved by the church.
Thank you abeca.
Through Divine revelation, God chose to show forth and communicate Himself and the eternal decisions of His will regarding the salvation of Man. ..In his gracious goodness, God has seen to it that what He had revealed for the salvation of all nations would abide perpetually in its full integrity and be handed on to all generations. Therefore Christ the Lord in whom the full revelation of the supreme God is brought to completion commissioned the Apostles to preach to all men that Gospel which is the source of all saving truth and moral teaching and to impart to them heavenly gifts. This Gospel had been promised in former times through the prophets, and Christ Himself had fulfilled it and promulgated it with His lips. This commission was faithfully fulfilled by the Apostles who, by their oral preaching, by example and by observances handed on what they had received from the lips of Christ, from living with Him and from what He did, or what they had learned through the prompting ot the Holy Spirit. The commission was fulfilled, too, by those Apostles and apostolic men who under the inspiration of the same Holy Spirit committed the message of salvation to writing. But in order to keep the Gospel forever whole and alive within the Church, the Apostles left bishops as their successors, “handing over” to them ” the authority to teach in their own place.” This sacred Tradition, therefore, and the Sacred Scriptures of both the Old and New Testaments are like a mirror in which the pilgrim Church on earth looks at God , from who she has received everything, until she is brought finally to see Him as He is, face to face. And so the apostolic preaching , which is expressed in a special way in the inspired books, was to be preserved by the Apostles by an unending succession of preachers until the end of time. Therefore, the Apostles, handing on what they themselves had received, warn the faithful to hold fast to the traditions which they have learned either by word of mouth or by letter and to fight in defense of the faith handed on once and for all. Now, what was handed on by the Apostles includes everything which contributes toward the holiness of life and increase in faith of the peoples of God; and so the Church , in her teaching, life and worship, perpetuates and hands on to all generations all that she herself is, all that she believes. Dei Verbum 5,7-8 (The quotes come from St. Irenaeus “Against Heretics” III) CCC reference 74-79
Wrong…the only person that can censure Cdl. Mahony is the Pope himself…and yes, he does “outrank” Archbishop Gomez..check your canon law my friend…furthermore…Archbishop Gomez can actually do very little to silence or harness Cdl. Mahony…only the Pope can do that
Please do not confuse “rank” with “authority”.
Cdl Mahony has only the authority within the LA DIOCESE that Abp Gomez permits.
Canon law is very clear on who is the authority of a Diocese (church), and so is the CCC. – It is the appointed sitting Bishop.
Cdl Mahony as a Cardinal was permitted to vote in the conclave, and can participate in anything that all Cardinals participate in. He can say private Masses. He has no other authority within the Church save that which is given to him by a sitting Diocese Bishop.
Pope Benedict accepted Mahony’s required age related resignation re the LA Diocese, and did not see fit to appoint Mahony to any Vatican positions.
Miguelito,
Where are you getting your information. I have served two Archbishops. The first one was actually placed under a Diocesan Ordinary after having been the Titular Head of his native Country, Panama. According to what you write, Archbishop Clavel would have been a Superior to the Bishop of Orange, which he was NOT!
You are correct however in that only a Pope can relieve a Cardinal of the Red Hat!
God bless, yours in Their Hearts,
Kenneth M. Fisher
Cdl. Mahony is a Cdl…Gomez is an Archbishop…he is in charge of the Archdiocese…but does not outrank Mahony, until he also becomes a Cdl. Furthermore he cannot be censured by Gomez…only the Pope can do this…Due to his emeritus status he is only saying mass privately, but he has not been banned from confirmation’s …by anyone…although he should have been…he is a truly horrific example of a “Prince of the Church”…a dissident, wayward, obstinate proud cleric of the worst order…and a modernist to boot!
Do you understand that the current Bishop who is appointed by the POPE has total control over his own Diocese?!
This Bishop (Abp Gomez in the case of LA) determines who can say public Masses and perform any Sacraments on ANY Diocese Church property.
The article clearly states that Mahony performed these confirmations in a Diocese parish – controlled by Abp Gomez.
Again, you are confusing rank with authority. Rank (Title) does not mean much when someone has been stripped of authority.
Perhaps we all need to read the abuses approved by Mahony in the Court approved documents to stop Mahony from further rubbing salt in the wounds of injured parties, and scandalizing all decent people,
I find Cdl. Mahony revolting…sadly, I’m not so sure this man Ab. Gomez is all that great either, he seems weak, and wishy-washy…this Archdiocese needs a traditional Roman Catholic as Archbishop…something tells me Gomez is also a “modernist” in miter and vestments
Getting confirmed by Roger Mahoney is sorta like getting lifestyle approval from Madonna.
No, it’s like being confirmed by the Holy Spirit.
or a makeover on Queer Eye for the Straight Guy?
that was uncalled for…
It seems that many US Bishops still refuse to consider, act against and teach about the MORTAL Sin of SCANDAL within their own Diocese.
CCC: ” 2285 Scandal takes on a particular gravity by reason of the authority of those who cause it or the weakness of those who are scandalized. It prompted our Lord to utter this curse: “Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a great millstone fastened round his neck and to be drowned in the depth of the sea.” Scandal is grave when given by those who by nature or office are obliged to teach and educate others. Jesus reproaches the scribes and Pharisees on this account: he likens them to wolves in sheep’s clothing.”
CCC: ” 2286 Scandal can be provoked by laws or institutions, by fashion or opinion.
Therefore, they are guilty of scandal who establish laws or social structures leading to the decline of morals and the corruption of religious practice, or to “social conditions that, intentionally or not, make Christian conduct and obedience to the Commandments difficult and practically impossible.” This is also true of business leaders who make rules encouraging fraud, teachers who provoke their children to anger, or manipulators of public opinion who turn it away from moral values. ”
CCC: ” 2326 Scandal is a grave offense when by deed or omission it deliberately leads others to sin gravely.”
The difference is that these children did not sin in my estimation; they were victims of priestly sexual abuse, three words that should never have been put together in the same sentence.
Maryanne what they had to endure, I’m sure most likely made them not trust the church. Their confidence in the priests surely was diminished and rightly so. I really do feel for these parents too, no matter what suggestions many may have the fact is that these sexual abuse cases truly hurt and destroy the spirit and their faith.
It’s part of the human condition to try to to comprehend things but in wicked situations like sexual abuse, how can anyone that is decent understand these things. As I was changing channels on TV, I saw an author who wrote a book called “God must be sleeping”…he shares his sexual abuse story and his dysfunctional life with his mum. God’s graces truly helped this man mature into dealing in a more positive way the way he was raised but not all people are so blessed like that….My prayers are with all abused victims and their families. Also I pray for parents to be more empowered as well….also we pray for our church and it’s church leadership, for their vocation is truly under attack and I’m sure it’s difficult for them as well especially if they are ones who truly take their calling serious.
As the Archbishop of Los Angeles, The Most Reverend José Gómez should tell Cardinal Mahony (as he did once already) that he may NOT administer the Sacrament of Confirmation in that archdiocese!
Cardinal Mahony is not in charge of that diocese any longer, and a diocese only has ONE boss, one Ordinary — the Bishop, whom the Catechism of the Catholic Church calls “the Vicar of Christ” in his role of leading his particular diocese.
Even if Mahony were the retired POPE, he would have no authority to bop around doing Confirmations without the approval of Archbishop Gómez!!!
In the end this is all about $$$.
Mahony has lived in and around LA for nearly 80 years. He’s long rubbed elbows with the financially elite: Dohenys (oil), Von der Ahes (Vons supermarkets), O’Malleys (Dodgers), Rupert Murdoch, Eli Broad, et. al.
While Mahony is largely disgraced at this time, I am sure he still has enough power to influence some donations. Enough at least to make Gomez (and perhaps Francis) think twice.
Mahony is a cancer that needs to be cut-out and physically removed from the diocese. He needs to be given an assignment by the Pope that will keep him out of the public eye (and ears!)
One very concrete move the Holy See could make is to create a Diocese of Santa Barbara. Everything from Santa Maria in the north to the Conejo Grade in Camarillo is very logically a separate diocese.
Take some of the load off Gomez! Allow those in that region not to be sucked into and lost in the giant Archdiocese of LA.
Not to the Conejo Grade, R.B. Rodda, but to the Los Angeles County line, so as to include Thousand Oaks, Newbury Park, Moorpark, and Westlake Village in a more holy alliance with traditional Catholics.
I don’t know anyone in the Westlake Village area or Thousand Oaks who has a positive view of Mahony, and sadly, that has been true for decades, long before his crimes against children and devastation of the financial assets of the archdiocese became known. We are so different in Ventura and Santa Barbara Counties in almost every way, and far away both geographically and culturally from Los Angeles, that we really should be identified as fully separate.
This is not merely to rid ourselves of the stench of the Archdiocese of Los Angeles, but is a reflection of our separate realities.
I very much agree. You made some great points. I would however go even further though upon reflection.
Santa Maria to Westlake Village is only about 36 parishes. The San Fernando Valley is about 31 parishes. I would combine the existing Pastoral Regions of Santa Barbara and San Fernando for a suffragan see of 67 parishes. That makes for a nice sized diocese — about the size of Monterey in terms of parish count.
The San Fernando Valley is quite distinct from the Los Angeles Basin in many ways as well. It’s a logical grouping. I’m not sure where the cathedral and chancery would be, but likely off US 101. This diocese would pretty much be an economic powerhouse.
I suspect those living in Burbank and Studio City would be happier even if their new cathedral was located in a place like Calabasas. Burbank to Calabasas is a lot easier than Burbank to Downtown LA.
Ignoring things like this is another reason that makes me question the worldwide Church. This sort of thing has been talked about for decades. This isn’t a difficult call. It should be done if not only to be fair to the faithful and to take the load off the archbishop of LA. Like so many things though, don’t hold your breath — the archbishop not only wants to retain the prestige/power, he also wants to retain the “together in mission” $$$.
I’ll also add that if a GOOD bishop were appointed to this proposed diocese contingent on being able to raise funds for a new cathedral/chancery (even though there are large churches in the Valley that could serve as a cathedral), I think the donations would FLOOD in. Many have pretty much had it with the Archdiocese of LA. I’m one of them. Thanks for your insight.
Your thoughts on this topic make sense. Too bad the several missions in this geographic area you are proposing are not large enough to serve as the region’s main cathedral, as the admirable and historical accomplishments of the Spanish priests who first brought Catholicism to this area are wondrously evident on those holy grounds.
Reading these blogs gives me great pain. Our Holy Roman Catholic and Apostolic Church has been split into warring factions. Satan has succeeded, as it stands today. Only God can save our church now. Sadly, we have done this to ourselves. We desparately need a third council to nullify the evil brought on by the second.
Apparently, the parents of those being confirmed have no problem with this. Seems the even bigger scandal is attributable to the apathetic faithful of the Archdiocese.
Dave N what a irresponsible uninformed comment you just made. Especially when in California most people voted against parental notification, especially when you have parents who give their daughters birth control as soon as they start having boyfriends in high school, especially when many Catholics are lukewarm and do not seek the truth ….just because parents have no issue, doesn’t mean it is OK.
Plus some of these parents may not be aware and because he is a Cardinal, they may actually see it that the church approved, so they tend to not question authority. Especially if they are in more Hispanic areas, some of them are taught to not question but to get the sacraments when needed.
An amusing article ‘The Amazing Catholic Bullsh*t Generator’ can be read on John Zmrak ‘s website BadCatholicsBingoHall. He writes an especially poignant ‘cameo’ on Cardinal Mahony.
When Mahony’s “signature issue” is ILLEGAL immigration, rather than abortion or same-sex marriage, or teaching all to read the CCC – that tells us all something about Mahony.
He merely panders to those he thinks will keep him in power.
Can Catholics from the LA Diocese civilly sue him for his personal fortune to pay back the Diocese for his pro-active support of sexually abusive Priests and their continued illegal activity?
(I believe the fines and legal settlements were about $660, 000, 000. 00.)
It is my understanding that the only reason that Mahony is not in jail is due to the statute of limitations. Is this correct?
Where can we get a copy of the Church records that the Court Ordered be made public – a book should be written on this to put Mahony in his rightful place.
Catherine, in response to your question to me about Bernardin, I had read a book he wrote in which I became convinced that he was victimized by false claims. As time has gone on and much has developed since then, I am not sure what to believe.
I admit I am the most gullible person I know, as I try to put myself in the place of the speaker and tend to relate to those who have been misunderstood. I have been so severely misunderstood that I immediately assume other people too suffer this problem commonly, and I tend to immediately assume they would not lie. Therefore, I have come to the neutral position of realizing I am hopeless at knowing whom to believe in this world and tend now to leave judgments to God, as I should always have done anyway.
I must say it creeps me out a little to have you research my every word and bring it back up to me years later, as if you are looking for a fight, challenging me. It is one of the lamentable aspects of trying to have an open conversation on a forum like this, with others you don’t know, on topics that mean a lot to me. If my words are heard to resonate with others, it is impossible to know if folks are nodding their heads in silent agreement. But if someone takes the time to bring up my words years later, it is reminiscent of growing up with my abusive father, who was, unfortunately, a person whose memory was infallible about even such things as the color of the color of the leather seats on their soda fountain stools in an Oklahoma drug store he visited in 1938. I visited that town, found the old drug store in the 1970’s, and sure enough, the old leather seats were cracked but still green, as he had answered when challenged.
You can’t win arguments with people with minds like that, and nowadays computers offer anyone with the time to check you out an excellent repository of every word you’ve ever uttered online. Creepy indeed!
I don’t see how my wavering opinions of Cardinal Bernadin could be of interest to anyone. I feel like I’m experiencing Judgment Day early from you, a weird feeling since I have a lot of respect for your knowledge and ability to articulate it. I feel like you’ve been putting me to the test for a few years now, challenging me if I am one word in possible discord with you, and I wonder why you even care what I think now or thought year ago? Very uncomfortable indeed.
I was particularly astonished to have you state that enablers of mortal sin are themselves guilty of mortal sin, in the context of which I could clearly see you were implicating me, since I dared to agree with a statement by a homosexual. I do not condone sin of any kind, and most certainly not when it is my own. I feel truth is truth, no matter who is stating it, and I will stand up for truth anytime I see, hear or read it. I don’t appreciate your hinting that I am in a state of mortal sin for having agreed with a self-described homosexual on one particular item. It is best not to judge me for acknowledging truth wherever I see it. That is most definitely not encouraging sin, Catherine. You seem to have a flashlight and magnifying glass looking for my faults; why would that be? So many are so obvious, why go to all the trouble?
Let me make it easy for you to decide what to think about me, Catherine: I’m entirely imperfect from head to toe! No need to look it up.
Maryanne Leonard, you have my support and sympathy.
Anony the victim act again??? WOW! Maryanne I have to say, this anony troll is playing you, please don’t feel like a victim but understand the charity and freely dialogue….it’s a gift from our Lord.
Good dialogue doesn’t play the victim nor does it tries to manipulate people into getting others to feel like it was an attack. Maryanne I know you are smarter than that because I can tell that you are a decent person. Don’t think that Anony is your friend because of that let’s pretend you are a victim and pretend to be your friend trick. I really feel that you can smell those tricks a mile a away and won’t attack good people that Anony dislikes and misunderstands…there is bad will in Anony, if that person is the same…..there is too many Anony’s but there are those ones with the same pattern though.
abeca, a troll is someone who comes on to a forum and changes the subject. I agree that there are too many anonymous posters and it causes confusion, but I can’t think of a name.
For info on the heresy of Cardinal Bernardin read the following on the internet’
“R.I.P. Seamless Garment 1984-2004: Pope Benedict XVI Shreds Bernardin’s Fabric of Lies”.
Much later in life Bernardin tried to backtrack but could not undue his damage that he had already done and supported through the political machine of the USCCB.
At this time, it does not matter whether the heresy or schismatic statements were intentional or not. Bernardin did much damage in the USA which resulted in many Bishops promoting the Democratic Party of Death, and abortion to thrive even amongst many Catholics in the USA.
All sins are not equal, and Bernardin did not teach this in his original teachings (until it was too late)
Bernardin’s original teachings are why several US Bishops still do not enforce Canons 915 and 1399.
To do this day, the USCCB gives out $1ooo each year to one person who violates church legislation “On the SERVICE of CHARITY” which requires that Evangelization of the Faith be done not merely social work.
It is called the “Bernardin Award”.
What I cannot understand is why dupe bishops hold tight to their stupid theological errors. Did they enslave themselves to Bernardin’s false relgion? If so, why do they cling to it still? My guess is that these particular bishops have long given up any union with God they might have had, and are now subsumed into the lukewarm impersonal mush known as modernism. They’re trapped and crave their captivity. All any of them would have to do is follow Jesus Christ instead of their arcane ideologies. It is so easy and yet they refuse … examples of what is known as “stiff necked” or “hard hearted” men.
Skai I know, well I think I know what you mean but there is that word Sin….sin complicates things.
Maryanne Leonard,
Thank you for responding!
Please Google RCF and read ‘A FEW BLUNT WORDS’ by Father G.
I once asked k, to read those words too and he/she responded with a resounding and well earned OUCH! This is why you have the support and sympathy of an enabler named anonymous right underneath your post. I think that you do recognize that there are trolls undermining Church teaching on this site. I never expected you to seek inquiries from YFC on the *senses* of the homosexual community at large who also rejects the truth regarding God’s Natural Law, so how can you say that you are only interested in the truth from those who reject the truth? That is illogical thinking. It makes no sense if you are ONLY interested in the truth. Maryanne, this is a faithful Catholic website. If you are only interested in making nice coffee clutch statements or inquiries about the senses of *gays* then perhaps a coffee house is the better venue for nice conversation that is shallow and make believe. We will always be left unchallenged by the world because the world also accepts many other unnatural laws as you well know. Mark F. and many other posters have charitably questioned YFC after he strategically shared (TMI) too much information) about his 22 year living arrangement with his homosexual partner. This gave him the necessary activist forum to be seen as just another fellow Catholic who wants to persuade the gullible that his lifestyle is really no different than anyone else. Have you not paid attention? YFC has been given numerous opportunities to clarify what he meant and opportunities to uphold the truth like Mark F. has done. Mark F. even tried and YFC ignored the questions and changed the subject. He has chosen not to clarify and uphold the Church’s teaching because he is also another homosexual activist. He never needed to inform the blogosphere of his living arrangements. No one would have known if he consistently upheld what the Church teaches. He is a dodge ball artist and I am sorry if your gullibility made you fall victim, but I still think you are smarter and that is my challenge to you.
Maryanne, You have always reminded me of my sister who I dearly love. She is very gullible which can also be dangerous if you end up trusting the wrong person. She is also the first to recognize that she is able to be duped by a smiling face and this can be costly. I am sure you have some stories. My favorite sweet story about my good Catholic sister is the time we were having a baby shower for another sister. My sister was opening a can on an electric can opener. The lever on the can opener read, “Touch to Operate,” and my sister did not see a bit of the grime that had collected and the c in the word Touch, looked like a g to my sister. She came out of the kitchen and honestly inquired, “Gee is it really true that this can opener is tough to operate?” We all laughed and to this very day if we are worried about her or each other for not “getting something” we remind the sister that is being duped about being “tough to operate”. I hope you enjoy that little true story Maryanne as much as I will love witnessing your being consistent when defending all Church teaching with as much vigor, with as much fairness, as with as much fairness and balance.
Maryanne you will certainly appreciate Father G’s letter which is well written. Father G is a Catholic priest who helped Stephen Brady during the time when RCF worked very hard to end the vast homosexual network of predators within the Catholic Church. Many on this site will try and distract my conversation with you in order to belittle Stephen Brady but they never walked in his heroic shoes. Stephen Brady loves the Catholic Church. He disdained the corruption and cover ups of evil. He was the first to be inundated by parents with knowledge of their children being molested. Some of those children committed suicide and Stephen Brady was responsible for exposing the worldwide problem of children being victims of molestation by the clergy. Stephen Brady knew first hand what great lengths of revenge that were enacted on victims in order to hide or protect sheer evil. This was done at the Diocesan level and he lost faith in the clergy running the the corruption in many Dioceses and felt abandoned by those who did have the authority to do something but he did not lose his faith in God and the Catholic Church. God will judge each of our actions and the purity of our intentions. How shameful and crushing it is to learn that many of our fellow Catholics in the United States felt they had absolutely no recourse but to leave their Diocese because of evil that was being protected with no discipline or consequences in sight for offending bishops and Cardinals. I am praying for all of my fellow Catholics who were so wounded by the battle that they were forced to seek respite in Independent chapels or they would completely lose their faith after first hand witnessing the enormous network of filth and the ongoing protection of corruption. Enablers of that evil will enjoy belittling Stephen Brady for his open letter saying he was going to only attend Independent Chapels where only the EF is said. I am not advocating Independent parishes either. Jesus will ask each of his shepherds? WHO scattered my sheep?
Maryanne you claim to love the truth and you say the truth is the truth no matter where it is spoken. Being a victim yourself Maryanne then I am truly baffled when you ask for the truth from a poster or posters who openly show disdain for the truths of Church teaching even though they might be showing their complete disdain with syrupy flavored placebo posts. You will more easily and readily attack Canisius for his openly genuine outrage at women who systematically dismantle Church teaching because he openly calls them ugly yet you are either not bothered or you do not recognize YFC’s or MarkfromPA’s more appealing and cleverly disguised duplicitous activism as a greater ugliness that is being unleashed directly at God by their systematic undermining of the teachings of the Catholic Church. Your priorities of rage are a bit imbalanced. You called yourself gullible and perhaps this is true but I think you are much smarter than this Maryanne. Also I never wrote the words that you were enabling mortal sin. You wrote that. Could this perhaps be your own good conscience finally letting you know that this is exactly what you are doing? I asked you for your reasoning behind your post. If I thought it was bad to speak with the homosexual posters on this site, I would not do so myself. I have often praised Mark F. for speaking the truth, so your claim that I am upset because you dared to speak with YFC is false.
I see that you are quick to jump on anyone who gets mad at a woman but you’ll turn a quick blind eye to the activism that is being dished out by the bucket load. Is that being gullible too?
Marynne, I told you once before that you are the most gifted writer on this website and I meant that. Dana is another brilliantly gifted writer who also defends the truth along with the insightfully wise and tenacious Abeca. Would you please take this challenge as a compliment. Even Abeca hoped that you would not be insulted by the challenge. Abeca understood what I was asking you. Could you please use your female energy to clarify error to those who disdain Church teaching even if they are often able to schmooze out duplicity wearing a three piece suit and tie with honey dripping off of their tongues. They disdain Church teaching and this is where the flashlight should shine. You have even been made aware that MarkfromPA posts regularly on anti-Catholic websites that HATE the truths of the Catholic Church yet you praise his character while dismissing the character of others who do defend the Church just because they called a woman ugly. Activists are telling Catholics that God’s teachings are ugly and not the truth and you comfortably are seeking inquiries from activists regarding “the senses” of activist homosexuals. Do you really feel that it is a sign of good Catholic character to post on anti-Catholic websites that defend perversion, ridicule Church teaching as well as showing a hatred for God’s natural law just because they talk nice to YOU. What happened to loyalty to GOD? Why doesn’t that TRUTH seem to bother you? Is it because MarkfromPA said NICE things about YOU? Mayanne at the time I discovered those websites Mark certainly didn’t talk nice about Pope Benedict the Vicar of Christ on earth and that truth should bother you more than even if he had said something lame about you, me or other women. You knew that he was posting on anti-Catholic or ANTI-truth websites because you brought it up. So it’s ok as long as he talks nice about you and to you but he can post along with other haters of the teachings of the Church and as long as they love you it does not matter if they are disloyal to God. This is how you are coming across. If you think that you are still too gullible then Father G’s letter addresses that too.
Maryanne, I did not do any “creepy” research on you. I did not need to. I simple remembered that you did support Cardinal Bernadin which you had never retracted until I brought this up. You say that you still are not sure who to trust. Trust in those teachings and defend them. The reason that I also remembered your support for Cardinal Benadin was something you posted recently. There was a recent thread on women acting out as priests and you wrote a long response about how women would not be so easily driven to do these things if they were treated better by men. (Once again you took that particular story of disobedience and spent more time and energy talking about the mistreatment of women more than defending the assault being done to the Christ and the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.) I do believe that you also made an inference that the Church did not do as much for women as they could possibly be doing. You DID clearly state that you were not in favor of women’s ordination but you automatically turned it into a post focusing on the mistreatment of women, ( instead of focusing on the mistreatment of God) which you often do. I don’t mind if you think highly of women and defend them but the main purpose of CCD is to inform, uphold and defend the Catholic faith which is consistently being undermined by both women and men.
Maryanne, There is a war against God, and both men and women have been complicit. The focus should be on God and what is pleasing to God. You even wrote on that thread that you were sure that you were going to be assailed for your post. Maryanne, I did wonder what you meant when you wrote that the Church is not doing everything they could for women and I would like you to please clarify that remark if you would. Take that post with your interest in seeking out “truth” from a poster who refuses to uphold the Church’s TRUTH and this is why I brought up your previous support for Cardinal Bernadin. In adding those things up, it does not make sense if you say you are ONLY interested in the truth. YFC dodges the truth by trying to sound like an appealing mirage in the desert. When you approach this activist or moving mirage to ask him to uphold the truth, the mirage suddenly disappears. The oasis of truth that you are seeking will not come forth because it isn’t there yet and won’t be there until YFC has a complete change of heart and stops his activism of serving his false religion of homosexuality. Then like St. Augustine, he will radiate truth because his activism will be for God first. Then, he will truly come across as a fellow Catholic.
Maryanne, I belong to a network of Catholic women who email each other across the United States. They often inquire about a speaker coming to their parish and if anyone knows if these speakers are faithful to the Magisterium. The best indicator is often the public track record of loyalty or disloyalty that speakers may have publicly shown for controversial issues. This is how you know they are loyal or disloyal. Bernadin supporters would not be asked to speak at a faithful parish. Maryanne, it was always troublesome to me that you supported Cardinal Bernadin and you never retracted that support until now and still you say that you are not sure what to think. My so called flashlight is not looking for *your* faults. All of our flashlights should be shining the light on deception and activism that seeks to undermine Christ’s real reason for hanging on a cross for three excruciating hours. To redeem ALL sinners.
I do value your many other very excellent posts Maryanne and I hope you receive this post in the loving spirit that it is truly intended. Who says that sisters in Christ are not allowed to disagree, or forgive past disagreements in order to love, to protect and to encourage one another! The foundation of all love is based on the truths of our Catholic Church which was founded by Jesus Christ. Truth is never confusing, never duplicitous and truth never hides or calls itself anonymous.
Good post, Catherine, and I already heartily agree with perhaps 85% to 95% of what you’ve said and am fully open to thinking about all you’ve said. I’m amazed that you pay that much attention to what I write, since it is pretty much shooting off my mouth about whatever I think, mainly to read my own words later and see if what I’ve thought (in writing, unfortunately) is truly defensible. I too seek truth more than any other thing and wish I knew the truth about many things I never will, but will just have to leave to God.
I do feel homosexuals who are living a chaste lifestyle deserve respect, and those who are merely activists but claiming to be chaste deserve respect, to the best of my ability, but their views and sinful behavior deserve admonishment based on my genuine hope that they will change their ways and leave the sinning behind, which may eventually also help them become relieved of their distorted thinking about other men (or women). I find their attraction confounding and their behavior appalling if they are not chaste, but I try to remain respectful of their human dignity just to try to be a better Catholic and a better person. Running people down because they are gay is tacky to me, but standing up for sin-free living is a good thing.
As for my standing up for women, I actually like women and men equally or dislike them based mostly on their character, behavior, and good hearts, or lack thereof. I admit I like nice people better than nasty people, and smart people better than those who are less endowed by Our Creator with brains, that is, unless they are so darn smart that I can’t even follow their thinking, that is, and find it too exhausting! So I’m completely fallible and also am guilty of liking nice people better than crabby people, and am superficial myself at times, not being able to tolerate being around the great unwashed, though I’ve liked and occasionally helped the smelliest homeless people who seem to me to be good people. So I’m no saint, as you see. However, I do not “like women,” as you implied, at the expense of men. I am the oddball kind of woman who has had almost as many terrific and close friends who are men as I have had really good girlfriends. I just see that this world does not treat women as well as men, in terms of dignity (which outrages me), in terms of being used sexually and as second-class workers, overworks women in most family situations, and does not fully regard women as of equal value economically, etc., etc. I also see women as (generally) more responsible to and for their children, and that many women are used sexually and dumped, or abandoned if married, without proper child support or reward for years served as unpaid servants of the abandoning men, who sometimes turn in their 40’s wives for two 20’s, to use an old but true cliché.
This teaches society that women are only of value when they are young and attractive. What if we taught men the same thing, made them work harder than we do both at work and at home, for less pay for equal work, for less workplace opportunity, and regularly cheated on men and left them for another man, abandoning the children? Fortunately, that is beneath the dignity of most women, but it is a form of mistreatment and oppression due to gender. I believe when men act like this, they are not acting as Jesus would have expected of them. But this is all simplistic thinking, and I’m sure you have had many similar thoughts when observing women being treated badly by men. I just don’t think most people are sufficiently outraged.
In fact, I believe that this society would function perhaps more than 1,000 times better if everyone were Catholic, and lived truly Catholic lives, not just homosexuals but all of us, and if everyone from our cardinals on down who is supposedly Catholic actually lived up to the teachings of the Church. I’m not saintly enough to become a judge of other people’s eternal destinations, but I know sin when I see it, and I lament it, not merely because it hurts Jesus, which is the worst part, but the individual who is sinning and even working against the Church’s teachings is likely to suffer eternal damnation, and the mere thought upsets me. I am concerned for my own soul too, of course, but wish to do everything I can to “make it into the clique,” so to speak, and to help guide other people to be interested in salvation also. I fear some people if not most these days do not care about it. It’s a “wink-wink” society nowadays, almost 100% the opposite of the way I was raised, and I don’t see society or individuals served by widespread disregard of the laws of Christ, which are admirably translated in my opinion by the Holy Roman Catholic Church. I see even the Church as in need of cleansing and renewal, though I love it – and I don’t mean a Vatican II misdirected attempt at renewal, or anything that brings us barefoot dancing girls and guitar Masses, though I admit I don’t see sin there exactly, but powerful offense in my probably too easily assaulted sensibilities. I mean genuine reform, most especially in the clergy, the majority of whom are wonderful servants of
God, but so many of whom are reprehensible in too many appalling ways.
I know I haven’t answered all your points, but as I say, my main purpose in writing these posts is to relieve myself of my overwhelming thoughts, which run rampant in my head and won’t let me rest until I’ve unburdened myself, either upon some hapless person nearby or upon what I hope is the mostly Catholic world, composed in my imagination of good and faithful Catholics. My naïve self wants to believe everyone who posts here is good-hearted and very Catholic, even if just as imperfect a human being as I am. I believe all readers of these comments are intelligent, kindly, thoughtful, and faithful.
I am appalled when I am continually reminded that some folks who appear to be faithful Catholics feel free to insult women, especially merely for not being attractive. That is very non-Catholic to me and not worthy of posting on a Catholic site. No doubt at least half of all the readers here are women! I would be equally appalled if women posted demeaning remarks meant to insult, dismiss, and/or hurt men who are not rich. Some things are just beneath contempt, and unbecoming to the Catholic heart! So I protest them, and I feel rightly so. Even the Church does not clearly see how they are not that much better than society at large when it comes to keeping women “in their place,” which we all know is a second place position. I love the Church, however, and do not think women should be priests or openly become activists against Church teachings, whether of theology or more practical matters. We don’t need to be altar girls to be treated with genuine respect and sincere appreciation for all we bring to the human table. The days of open denigration of women should be long behind us by now, and we Catholics should be the first to encourage women to follow Mary as a role model and encourage men to treat each female as a daughter of Our Lady and an equal Child of God.
Fully different as she may be from males, she is equally worthy as a human being and in the eyes of God.
I’m sure I haven’t addressed everything you wrote, but I did read your letter with a peaceful and appreciative heart and will continue to ruminate on some of the points which require further consideration as I continue to try to figure out this crazy world we live in. To the best of my ability, I will try to continue to seek the truth, no matter from whence it seems to be before me, even if the speaker is a person profoundly different from myself. Most psychiatrists will tell you that madmen speak the truth more accurately than the rest of us; they just can’t accept what they perceive, and they misperceive that which they cannot accept.
I’ll be doggoned if I can figure out where the truth is and whom to believe, or how fully to believe them, as perhaps they think they see and are reporting the truth, or perhaps they are deceiving me, or even themselves.
I just know I try my very best to follow the light by following Jesus and the teachings of the Catholic Church, and the better I do that, the better things work out. Nifty that way, isn’t it?
Maryanne
Maryanne – You are right, Catherine’s research into – or unflinching memory of – every post on all these websites, and willingness to hold it against us, is creepy in the least. Stalking behavior, I venture to say. I learned more than I care to about stalking, having sat as a juror on a criminal stalking trial, having been both myself and a friend stalked.
YFC, “I venture to say. I learned more than I care to about stalking, having sat as a juror on a criminal stalking trial, having been both myself and a friend stalked.”
YFC, I venture to say that you did not learn as much as you should have learned at that criminal trial. If you had truly learned something of the greatest value then you certainly would not be stalking faithful Catholic websites to post comments that ONLY show fidelity to your religion of homosexuality. I think you sound like you picked up some clever and underhanded tips and learned how to troll and hide better while you stalk faithful Catholic websites spewing homosexual activism.
Sadly at this present time, you are only interested in undermining Church Teaching. Also, if you think that I have a good memory then you should know that the reason that I would like you to repent is that God has a Perfect Memory of those who continually mock his Natural Law and lead others to sin. Keep remembering YFC, hell is real, hell is very CREEPY and hell is eternal.
Correction: Creepy and pompous.
YFC you are the one who is here on a Catholic website! Stop with your ridiculous display of attacks on a devout Catholic. Go post your barf stuff on those gay and lesbian websites…don’t worry I won’t bother posting there…ITS NOT CATHOLIC!
Wishing you a very nice day Abeca!
Sounds great YFC. My day begins with our Lord and ends with our Lord……whether you believe it or not….but the best position is when I close my eye’s and I breath Jesus and slip into His arms……forget that I have an adult body…when I am with Jesus, my time alone with Him…I am not in my adult body but I am in His arms as His little girl…..
Jesus Loves you YFC…You are His little boy too…take up your cross and follow Him….
Matthew 18 “1At the same time came the disciples to Jesus, saying, Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven? 2And Jesus called a little child to him, and set him in the middle of them, 3And said, Truly I say to you, Except you be converted, and become as little children, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.”
I concur…man, YFC…pretty twisted man, posting homo rubbish on a Catholic blog is beyond twisted, it border’s on sacrilege…be that as it may, I do not approve of this repugnant lifestyle, which you embrace…it is revolting and degrading…your advocacy for it’s acceptance is shameful…have a moment of clarity son…post your filth on a “gay” blog…where other’s of your ilk, that indulge in the perversion of sodomy can commiserate…you savvy?
Catherine, back in that day when Brady was working on the exposure, I telephoned him after reading a series of his articles. I was impressed with his veracity. He had stumbled onto a viper den, and was sounding the alarm, while exposing its tunnels to the light. His efforts resulted in the downfall of a bishop and a nest of sacriligious priests who were actually gay predators and hucksters. That bishop’s asst called me and tried to disinterest me in the situation; he was a class A wimp, and then the bishop talked with me, and he was an abomination to everything having to do with Jesus Christ. Brady uncovered a whole lot of corruption.
Your absolutely right Skai. It was a vipers den and there are still vipers hiding amongst us. Stephen Brady uncovered and removed the veil that was hiding absolutely horrific evil. Stephen Brady is a very courageous soul. I would like to also commend you Skai on your zeal. I do remember that you once mentioned that it was Our Lady who helped to draw you to the truths of our Catholic faith. I love those kind of stories and there are many! “My soul doth magnify the Lord.”
Catherine, your (and others) commendation of hate-mongers like Skai and Canisius is exactly what repels me about the so called “devout” Catholics here.
It is one thing to speak out against homosexuals and others you believe to be sinful. It is quite another to launch hate-filled attacks against those you consider sinners. The first can be said to doing God’s work as they see it. The second group, is just putting on the fake colors of God as an excuse to ridicule, humiliate and bully others. It seems to me that a truly faithful catholic would also call out disgusting hate-filled rants even if they support “traditional” positions.
Back on the thread where I substituted “gluttony” for “gay” and “homosexual” I was roundly criticized for being hateful and unchristian—which is exactly what I had been saying about those same statements. Yet, no one paid much attention to your own judgments about hateful words.
Perhaps if you started to pay attention to your own judgments, I might believe you are truly devout. Until that time, you’re a bunch of hypocrits.
Skai, your characterization of the bishop’s assistant as a “wimp” is very telling. Do you really care about morality, or is it just a mechanism against which to exercise your frustrated desire for worldly dominance?
A hallmark of abusive individuals is that they try to manipulate you into believing that you are too naive and stupid to think for yourself and that they must interpret things for you. They also try to control who you speak to and what you say.
Anony did you just describe you? Don’t be to hard on yourself ole lad.
Now when the truth is spoken……
It used to upset my mother terribly when my siblings and I would quarrel. We can all agree that we love our most tender, sweet Mother and I know it grieves her to see her children fighting. Please, will everyone please pray for everyone else? I pray often for Thomas Miles because I know it pleases Mary. Can we not see that infighting only pleases satan? It grieves me that it’s so difficult for MarkA and YourFellow to hear and see what Jesus would dearly love them to see, but til that happens, it would do well to ask why we’re all here, writing, sweating over spelling or typos, reading truly dreadful stories about scandals and abortion and all the rest. We’re here because we care what happens to our beloved Church and to our fellow Christians…when someone no longer shows up, we’ll never know if they’ve died or are suffering great distress…do we want to be the cause of giving them more pain? Jesus tells us to not only love one another as He loves us, but to love our enemies. I know, I know, I have a really sharp tongue, but I really feel bad later if I think I may have hurt someone. Anyway, I think what we’re all REALLY upset about is this Cd.Mahony guy…are you all praying for God’s will to be done for that man? He’s villainous and should be brought to account.
Getting back to the article: “Cardinal Mahony still confirming Los Angeles youth” – how many have written to LA Diocese – Abp Gomez about this scandal?
And what was his response?
Has anyone written to LA Diocese head, Abp Gomez, with a copy to the US Papal Nuncio, and the Vatican?
What was the response of Abp Gomez?
Don’t let the subject drop. This is a scandal.
Where can we get a copy of the LA Diocese Documents that the Court ordered to be made public?
Here ya go:
https://clergyfiles.la-archdiocese.org/listing.html
Seized control of the land?…you’re walkin’ around blind without a cane Jon J.! You live in a nation, that “seized the land”… that broke innumerable treaties with the indigenous tribes that inhabited this great nation, killed off scores of men, women and children for the sake of “manifest destiny”. Don’t pick on Spain senor!… Great Britain, when conquering the globe, “for queen and country”, were also particularly adroit at spreading disease, (some of which were std’s, along with small-pox), with wholesale corruption, the abuse of alcohol… and their motives were solely based on avarice and greed!…Almost all countries under the banner of colonialism have done the same…often, much worse then Spain ever imagined…you need a course in revisionist history sport!
Miguelito Loveless writes.
“Almost all countries under the banner of colonialism have done the same…often, much worse then Spain ever imagined…you need a course in revisionist history sport!”
Dr. Loveless, Perhaps it is you sport, who needs a course in understanding the purpose of this website. You don’t even realize that you are the one limping around with your tiny imaginary cane while attempting to beat others over the head with that Hollywood based theme name that has it’s foundational name built on a fantasy television show. Do you think that for one minute anyone is going to take your posts seriously? Most men are not quite as comfortable with introducing their wisdom and their thoughts and ideas on a faithful Catholic website as coming from under the banner of a “little (villainous) man.” No matter what you say, no matter if you say your facts are true and that others are false, the majority of readers will not be able to get past the idea that you are obviously more attached to the fantasy world of let’s pretend and make believe so your words will be viewed from that perspective. Foiled again! In other words Miguelito, you will never get your points across when talking about injustices when you also seem to enjoy the injustice of pulling your own six shooter out of your holster and shooting yourself in the foot in front of your friends and opponents. Your six round capacity is over my friend. You might want to pick a more worthwhile name if you want some realistic cluck for your buck.
Wikipedia on Dr. Miguelito Loveless
Dr. Miguelito Quixote Loveless is a fictional character, a villain who appeared in ten episodes of the 1960s television series The Wild Wild West. He is a brilliant (though insane) dwarf portrayed by Michael Dunn.[1] As a mad scientist, Dr. Loveless conceived numerous plots which were always foiled by Secret Service agents James West and Artemus Gordon, though he was always prepared with an escape plan.
Big deal…I liked the show, and thought the actor Mike Dunn was outstanding…in fact he was a convert to Catholicism… was very devout in his faith and was a Franciscan monk for a time…he was in a religious community in Detroit…he was also an academy award nominated actor…and had a beautiful singing voice…very gifted, holy little man…who never once groused about his physical limitation’s…he looked at what he could accomplish, in the world…not the things he couldn’t!
Catherine, I liked the “tiny imaginary cane” line…LOL!…he did ambulate pretty well with that little cane…television was so innocent and wholesome back in the 60’s…compare that family program with the putrescent rubbish on the tele today!…”Girls in the City” is just one of many filthy programs, Seinfeld was also horrific…
Wow, I didn’t know that! I always liked Mr. Dunn, as he was a terrific actor and brought authenticity to whatever role he played. Do you remember ‘Have Gun Will Travel”? Richard Boone was another favorite of mine, along with Ernie Kovac. Ah, those were the days. Sorry Catherine, but I couldn’t resist!
My friend attended Taft High with Chuck Connor’s son…loved the “Rifelman”!…his son had a rep as a pretty tough hombre in high school…my favorite western was Gunsmoke…I used to be pals with Newlie’s son…that was Buck Taylor’s kid…his dad was Dub Taylor, a truly outstanding character actor…