The following comes from a statement posted February 6 on the Scouting.org website.
For 103 years, the Boy Scouts of America has been a part of the fabric of this nation, providing its youth program of character development and values-based leadership training. In the past two weeks, Scouting has received an outpouring of feedback from the American public. It reinforces how deeply people care about Scouting and how passionate they are about the organization.
After careful consideration and extensive dialogue within the Scouting family, along with comments from those outside the organization, the volunteer officers of the Boy Scouts of America’s National Executive Board concluded that due to the complexity of this issue, the organization needs time for a more deliberate review of its membership policy.
To that end, the National Executive Board directed its committees to further engage representatives of Scouting’s membership and listen to their perspectives and concerns. This will assist the officers’ work on a resolution on membership standards. The approximately 1,400 voting members of the National Council will take action on the resolution at the National Annual Meeting in May 2013.
For original text of statement, click here.
I don’t know who makes up the voting membership of BSA national council, but I’m guessing that if they mirror youth and young adults who are most likely to be Scout members, they will vote overwhelmingly to include their brothers and sisters who they already know include straights as well as those who are gay, lesbian, bisexual, and transgender. They know them as classmates, teammates, denmates, and friends. They are overwhelmingly in favor of equal rights for LGBT, and they support marriage equality. Why wouldn’t they welcome them as fellow Scouts?
I have a grown boy and was an assistant scoutmaster. I disagree that the BSA should wish Gay, Lesbians, and Transgenders on American boys. Look at what homosexuals in the seminaries wrought to the Catholic Church, and those were mere run-of-the-mill pederasts.
Gratias – You contradict yourself. Homosexual does not equal pederast.
Yes it does…..
No Canisius, homosexual does not equal pederast. And to say otherwise is utterly slanderous.
You’ve been seeing my comments for a while now on CCD. You know that i do not and would never support pederasts. They should be removed from the priesthood and from exposure to kids. Without exception. But pederasty and homosexuality are not by a long shot the same thing.
Are you kidding….Over 80% of the abuse involved homosexual abuse. The pedophilia rate was between 5-7%…..
26% of the victims were harmed by 3% of the perps.
Wrong, YFC, there were plenty of groups who broke off from the Girls Scouts when the radical feminists took them over, and the same thing will happen to the Boy Scouts.
They are not worried about “fellow Scouts” — they’re worried about having “leaders” who are LGBT. Homosexual men should not be around adolescent boys. We need to protect our children from any adult that has a known sexual disorder.
The Boys Scouts take an oath to be morally straight. That oath would change with the acceptance of scout leaders who have sexual disorders.
Marriage equality is “one man and one woman”. Anything else is unbalanced, in more ways than one.
Because engaging in homosexual acts is intrinsically evil, morally corrupt, and an abomination against the design of our very bodies. There is a vast difference between same sex attraction (a physio-psychological flaw, and not in and of itself sinful, but merely concupiscent) and the engaging in homosexual acts, let alone celebrating those same homosexual acts as intrinsically defining who and what a person is. Those engaging in homosexual activity should have NO PART in the formation of young boys consciences and moral, physical, and social habits, nor should they be allowed access to young, impressionable boys as that would put them (active homosexuals as well as those with homosexual desires and tendencies) in a grave position of temptation (the near occasion of sin) as well as putting impressionable young boys in a position to be physically, spiritually, and morally violated.
YFC, since when do they have lesbian Boy Scouts?
Oh, that is coming with all this bisexual garbage. Wait and see.
Bishops, Pastors, Parents who have Boy Scout Troups in their Parish, please contact the Boy Scout National Executive Board – so that our boys will not be taught that sodomy is an acceptable lifestyle.
ALEX I SAY AMEN TO THAT!
With the Unholy Emperor Obama urging the promotion of unnatural ‘marriage’ and homosexuality in every facet of society, I wonder what direction the Boy Scouts will take?
The fact that they are even considering it, is sick to me! But lets keep pouring our support for them to do what is right!
“Fellow Catholic”: You are completely mixing concepts, which is a favorite tactic of homosexual sexual advocates. The BSA is a voluntary association, entirely distinct from a governmental entity such as a public school. You are generally correct, however, in noting that school age kids often, after a generation or two of liberal advocacy and without a Church that schools them about the moral evils of homosexual activity, often voice support for LGBT causes. The BSA is fully entitled to decide what it means by its pledge that its members agree to be “morally straight”. Unfortunately, many Christian churches no longer care much about morality, including, sad to say, the Catholic Church. Homosexual sex is morally repugnant and wrong. Its adherents have no claim, legally or morally, to lead children in BSA activities, where they promise to be “morally straight”. It is without argument that young boys with homosexual scout masters will be at risk, just as altar boys have been the chief target of homosexual clergy over these past 50 or so years. Moreover, it will not be long before BSA events will include overtly sexual tones extolling the virtues of homosexual marriage (as you just made the same connection in your blog). This is not what the BSA was, and is, inteneded to mean to growing young men. Of course, the BSA leadership might decide to change course (and it is likely that the Catholic Church leadership will say little against it, given its decidely pro-homosexual direction over the past decades). If so, the BSA will be over for many many Americans. It will continue, but not without a heavy loss of members and support. Of course, there will be “other” sources of support for a lavender BSA, but that is like seeing the elevation of Gene Robinson as “bishop” as a positive thing for the Episcopal Church. The BSA should decide not to permit its vital organization to be corrupted by homosexuals who wish to do with them what it has done with public education and religion where homosexual relationships have been embraced.
the paradigm shift may not be an acceptance of homosexuality but an intolerance of exclusion.
There is no place for SEX in any children’s youth programs. Those who go about publically stating their sexual preferences should not be Scout Leaders.
This is not about the temptation of same sex attraction.
The sodomists are pushing the “intolerance” and “exclusion” issue in all matters. If they stopped publicly promoting their lifestyles, and stopped expecting everyone else to bow to their sodomy by threatening lawsuits, what they do in the privacy of their own homes with consenting adults is their private business and their own free will.
If they don’t go to Heaven, that is their decision.
Alex – can we just be honest with ourselves here for a moment?
Everyone in these groups knows whether the person is married or not, and even in the cases of single scout leaders, whether they have a girlfriend or not. They probably even know who the wife or girlfriend is. We can pretend that these straight scout leaders don’t publicly state their sexual orientation, but we’d be fooling ourselves. Everyone knows, even without saying anything, that these scout leaders are straight. So keeping knowlege about a person’s sexual orientation out of scouting is almost impossible.
I’m glad that you agree with me that what people do in private is their own business, but the reality is that people have relationships that extend beyond the bedroom. This is just as true for gay people as it is for straight people. Straight people go to the movies with their spouses. They go to baseball games with them. They go on vacation with them. They go to concerts with them. Well, guess what, gay people do these things with their partners too. Being in a relationship with someone is about more than what people do in the bedroom.
We don’t ask straight people to pretend they don’t have wives, do we? Of course not…it would create an awkwardness and a dishonesty that actually goes against the values of scouting itself. So therefore, we should not ask gay people to pretend they aren’t in relationships. It would be dishonest, and I’m pretty sure you and I agree that honesty is a value we want to treasure and promote.
This value – honesty – is precisely why straight Generals wanted to lift Don’t Ask Don’t Tell in the military. They knew full well that there were closeted members of the ranks, and when they looked these men and women in the eye, and demanded honesty on their part yet also demanded that they lie about who they loved, they understood this contradiction.
So sure, the Scouts can continue to pretend that they don’t have gay people in their ranks. But they would be fooling themselves, and asking their members to lie. How is that a value that Scouts want to promote?
YFC, homosexual relations are immoral. People who live immorally are not supposed to be in positions where children see them as a role models. It has nothing to do with a risk of abuse. It has to do with providing children with good example. Are we at the point where there are no more moral people? Are we just using moral relativism to pick the best of the worst?
Don’t Ask Don’t Tell was pushed through by the pressusre of the radical homosexuals. The majority of our troops were against it. And please don’t site a flawed poll..
As for homosexuals and pedophilia, the rate of homosexual attraction is 6-20% times higher among pedophiles. And lest we forget our own Catholic Church’s sex abuse scandal, it was over 80% homosexual abuse. Does that mean all homosexuals are abusers? Of course not. But the majority in our Church proves that they have an extraordinary higher rate than heterosexuals… so why take the chance?
YFC, your post is anything but honest. Get this, according to St Paul, sodomites have “seared” (ie ruined, destroyed, wrecked) consciences. Thus, no matter how hard you try, it will always come out perverted … until you give it up. And even then, it will take decades for any significant healing to occur.
St Christopher, I’m going to guess that the average age of the CCD commenters is….60+. Of course I have no way of knowing, but it’s a place to start.
I’m certainly thinking that few if any are in the 30 to early 40 somethings age that would have kids in Scouts. Almost all opposition to fair inclusion of LGBT into the fabric of American life comes from the generation of the posters from CCD. Almost none of it comes from the average parent of a young person, and even fewer from the youth themselves.
And I’m willing to bet that even those who may not yet support things like same sex marriage know the obvious lesson from the priest abuse scandal: that it is the closet that causes men to act out, not the honest acceptance of ones sexuality. So this entire notion that Scouts shouldn’t have out gay people is probably not gonna fly with these folks, because they’d rather have gays who are out than gays who are closeted, which is what they have now.
So I’m just guessing, I don’t know yet, that if there is a split in Scouts, it will be because the Church sponsors of troupes will pressure their equality minded Scout leaders and the kids to follow their lead. And I think you will be surprised that, if there is a split, that the equality minded folks might just enjoy bigger and more successful scouting groups.
There we go again with YFC’s depraved argument that sodomy is ok if people want it.
Amazing! After the scandal and expense of homosexuals in the priesthood some want to see them in the Boy Scouts. Perhaps there is not much left to gain financially by suing the Church, so we need another organization — the Scouts — set up to provide for endless lawsuits. Those who studied psychology before the APA redefined homosexuality as a non-disorder know that homosexuals prey on young boys, and seek to belong to groups where there is access to them. Better that the BSA disbands than to allow itself to become the pawn of the homosexualist movement.
I urge you to catch up with the decades of research since the APA changed its policy about homosexuality. Spreading these untruths is really offensive to the millions of law abiding LGBT people who have no interest in preying on boys or “gaining access” to them.
Recall that there were many girls abused by our priests too … so by this logic, no adult should lead BSA groups. Or else, the better option is to make sure that NO adult is ever alone with kids. In a car, at a campsight, even in a church building.
YFC, as the ages of youth increase, the priest abuse increases. The great majority of abuse is boys between ages of 12 to 17. As soon as the prohibition is lifted men who are into boys will eagerly join the Scouts. What about confused boys or avowed homosexual youths sleeping, swimming and enjoying other activities around each other at troop camp outs. Many preteens and teens cannot control their emotions and actions go beyond allowed activities. You cannot guarantee constant supervision. This is why BSA is only for boys. It keeps minds and hands in the right place.
On our Boy Scout campouts, we paired in pup tents. There was never a scandal or even hint of one. As I look back in my memory, I cannot imagine any one of those boys being “gay”.
Given this data, I would support efforts to prevent priests from becoming scout leaders.
Lisag, gay boys are also boys. There have always been gay boys in the boy scouts but most have kept quiet about this. If boys are interested in being involved in the activities they should not be denied. A big problem is negative stereotypes that people have about gays. Kids that belong to the Boy Scouts know about the rules. They know that that certain behavior is not allowed. Lets give the kids credit for using common sense and self control.
YFC, before I would accept the advice of a counselor or psychiatrist or believe their research, I would want to know if they are living a good moral life, or at least attempting to do so. Otherwise their “research’ is just an excuse to justify their own sinful behavior. Those who are widely read, know that Freud and some other so-called fathers of psychiatry had some serious mental problems of their own.
In fact Freud did more research on people with serious mental problems and very little on ordinary people.
Freud discovered things but then he also took advantage of the knowledge and spun a web of bizarreness which countless people have bought into as into a religion.
Your Fellow Catholic, thank you so much for your post of 2/8, 4:48 PM. What you said is so true. When you speak about the 40% of homeless youth that are LGBT it breaks my heart. I can’t imagine the pain of these kids who have parents that hate gay people and therefore can’t accept their children. I wonder if they realize the danger that they put their children in by their rejection. These kids are in danger of exploitation and abuse and it is the fault of their heartless parents. Parents need to love and support their children who are gifts from God. I do think that a majority of Catholics support equal rights for gay people and are against discrimination. The bishops’ instruction, “Always Our Children”, make it clear that it is important for parents to love and support their gay children.
Anne, we are not talking about Freud, who died long before the APA changed its policy.
We are talking about thousands of practicing therapists who know that gay kids are not hampered in their development by being gay, but by parents, authority figures, and society in general, who tell them it isn’t ok to be gay and treat them with shame and disrespect. This is why it is so very important to embrace these kids, let them know they are loved, and especially to not send messages of rejection. The current scouts policy rejects gay kids and gay leaders. It hurts ALL kids, because instead of sending a message of unconditional love, it sends messages that kids had better be up to snuff, or face rejection.
YFC, I realize this is a forum where emotional safety will not be given to you, but if you are comfortable sharing: Are you a recent convert to the Church (You stated that 5 years ago you attended a community church) Have you experienced these kinds of attitudes at Catholic Church? What keeps you in the Catholic Church knowing that the Church is against gay marriage? (You haven’t actually said it, but you seem to argue against the church’s position on that.)
Anonymous, you are right, this is not a forum where emotional safety will be given to me. No one who is treated the way i am treated on CCD would answer personal questions.
Besides which, this isn’t about me or about my personal life, or even about whether or not homosexual practice is a sin. It’s not about “sexualizing” Scouts. It’s not about pedophilia or pederasty, or any of this other nonsense.
It’s about caring for kids (and adults) who are vulnerable and who don’t yet have the strength to stand up to people who have misconceptions about them. It’s about insisting that gay people be treated with dignity and respect and without discrimination. It’s about the 40% of homeless youth, who are homeless because they are LGBT and because their parents would rather their kid leave the home rather than embrace them and love them.
It’s about informing people who don’t understand what the church teaches about homosexuality: they don’t understand that being gay is neither a choice nor a sin. And they don’t understand that the Church herself insists that gay people be treated with dignity and respect and without discrimination. And to me, in this context, they shouldn’t be kicked out of Scouts either.
Thanks for your answer, YFC. This isn’t about letting gay kids in scouts. It is about having gay scout leaders. And yes, it is discrimination. A family’s inability to deal with a child who is lesbian or gay or bi or transgender really has not been discussed here. As for your last paragraph, again, they think “gay” means actively sexual and actively promoting gayness in the culture. So to them gay is a choice. None of them has ever expressed any animosity toward people with same sex attraction who live by the moral laws of the church. There are a few who treat gays-their definition- in ways that are repugnant to Christians. There are some who say things that are offensive simply because they do not know any better. Looking at it from the point of view of a young person who identifies himself as gay-regular definition- and seeing that they are not welcome in an organization such as the Boy Scouts is not a good thing. Being gay is a trial. All situations where people find themselves different from others can be sad and depressing and heartbreaking. Couple that with outright rejection and ostracism and people have a very difficult time coping with it. I know no one here who has a problem with people who overcome the difficulty. If a young man identifies himself as gay and resolves never to cross the line (established by God) into acting on that inclination, every one here would support him. It is not the orientation that people are objecting to. Also, many who post here fear that God will put them in Hell if they do not speak out against the acceptance of homosexual sex and marriage.
All children, YFC, should be loved and not called names, but no child should be told that male on male and female on female sex is normal because it is not. That is the problem. Everyone is tempted to do things that are wrong, and if we all gave into them, this world would be even worse than it is. You do not have to beat a child but neither do you need to tell them that it is all right to give into their temptations.
Anonymous, if you really read the comments here you would see that your opinion that everyone would treat gays ok on this site if all they did was obey the moral laws of the church. For some, yes, they would. And maybe you would. But over and over again, commenters on CCD say ridiculously hurtful and hateful things about all people who are gay, regardless of how they live their lives.
There used to be a thing that was discussed called moral turpitude. You could be fired from any job for it. It was a means of upholding the community’s standards of morality.The highest standards were held for teachers and those who worked with youth. Somewhere along the way, it became seen as cruelty and hypocrisy. Songs like “Harper Valley PTA” addressed the hidden immorality of the standard enforcers. There are a least two, possibly three, generations who have little, if any, education in morality. Public schools put in character education because the behavior of children was so undisciplined. A gay person — a person with a homosexual orientation — who lives a moral life, a Christian life is as good as a heterosexual person who lives a moral life.
A person with the temptation of same-sex attraction who is good, does not try to change our laws to support same-sex marriage (sodomy), and understands the temptation of being alone with men and boys.
A GOOD person will do his or her best to avoid the near occasion of sin. Good people do not seek out places of temptation. Seeking out places of temptation is sinful.
CCC: “2396 Among the sins gravely contrary to chastity are masturbation, fornication, pornography, and homosexual practices.”
Mac, 2 points:
1) Sodomy and same sex marriage are not the same thing. Sodomy – which is not a great term to begin with…where do lesbians fit into the mix….or individuals who don’t actually engage in sodomy proper – was among the practices that Lawrence v Texas protected a decade or so ago. Same sex marriage is not about legalizing ‘sodomy’.
2) If the scouts limited its ranks to “good” people who do not engage in masturbation, we’d pretty much clear them out. So let’s just be honest about that.
Anonymous, you are correct that a person with a homosexual orientation living a moral life is as good as a heterosexual person who lives a moral life. Nevertheless, they must encourage others to live that moral life also, or they are encouraging serious sinful behavior in others that they claim they are not engaging in themselves. That is pure hypocrisy, or causes one to doubt that they are truly living a moral life. Also, regarding the “Harper Valley PTA” song there is also a saying, “Someone else’s sin does not excuse my sin.” It seems that the character singing the song did have some serious sins of her own that she excused in herself by pointing the finger at the others who criticized her. All were wrong and needed to mend their ways. What she should have done was to clean up her own act, wear more modest clothing, then tell the others to clean up theirs too. That is the kind of good judgment of which the Lord Jesus gave his approval, “Take the log out of your own eye,” THEN you will see clearly to take the speck out of your neighbor’s eye. Christ in the full context of the “judge not that ye be not judged” verse did not mean that we should never make judgments. That is humanly impossible. He meant that we were to make fair, just and impartial judgments, and that we were to make sure we were not doing the same things ourselves. We need to clean up our own acts and others need to clean up theirs too. All the people in serious sin are at fault and in need of repentance.
YFC, I suppose anyone who comes on here would be “hurt” if they saw what we said about those who commit adultery and practice incest, or live with their boyfriend or girlfriend without the benefit of marriage, or if they stole from the local store or committed fraud, too, but that is just too bad. They should not be “hurt” but mend their ways.
And as far as my using double standards about sexual immorality, YFC, we are very strict about it. No one sleeps together at our house unless they are a heterosexual couple, who are properly married, meaning that if they are Catholics, they must have been married in the Church. If they are Catholics and divorced and remarried without an annulment from the Church, they are not allowed to sleep together in our house. In other words, we uphold Church teaching on such things, whether someone is “hurt” or not.
“Your Fellow Catholic”: Wrong again! The APA “change” was nothing more than a political decision made after years of infiltration by homosexual sexual advocates. In fact, the Church sees homosexual sex as a “disorder” and that is not going to change (even though the Catholic Church is much too heavily populated by homosexual clergy which it will take decades to remove). Nor should the BSA change, and risk the lives of its millions of young men that grow up within its influence. Homosexuals prey on boys. Yes, girls are molested, but the evidence is overwhelming that homosexual clergy have feasted on altar boys over the past decades (and continue to do so). And, no, not all homosexuals are so inclined, but many many are. In fact, the homosexual movement defines itself solely due to its sexual preferences, and they are often focused on young, very young, males as the ideal. Having homosexual men around growing boys would be a catastrophe. And, having homosexual men “rooming together” on camp outings would be hideous. Further, homosexual activism has taught us that it never stops; getting a seat at the table usually means immediate pressure to redefine what that any group does, including the “celebration” of homosexual sexual relations and marriage (as you have already drawn the link). How long would it take before one homosexual group or another was “invited in” to lecture young boys about the need to “be inclusive” and to “enjoy themselves” sexually with other males? (And will association between the BSA and NMBLA be long in coming?) This disgusting behavior may make scouting worthwhile to homosexuals, but it does not fit any one else’s view of a lifestyle that is “morally straight”. Adults being alone with kids is generally fine; only recent decades of homosexual “adventures” with youth has so perverted the popular culture that now all must see every event between adults and youth as a chance for gay aggression. The BSA should not, must not, change; nowithstanding the evil inclinations of pressure groups that seek to stain its proud record.
St Christopher, the logic is bit thin, to prohibit gay people from being in Scouts because there were priests who abused girls and boys. We know that there was widespread cover up of priests behavior, and that if adult supervisors had intervened, the abusers would have been purged from the Church long ago. And if modern rules about never allowing kids in the presene of a single adult were followed back then, abuse might never have happenned.
Several folks, including you, have claimed that the clergy is “heavily populated by homosexual clergy”. I don’t know if that is true or not. I have heard estimates as high as 40 and 50%. But only a couple of percent of clergy (I think it was 2-4%) were involved in the sex abuse scandal. So that means that over 90% of gay clergy never abused kids. They didn’t “prey” on kids. They pretty much run their parishes as they should. But certainly there is no evidence that the average run-of-the mill gay guy is running after boys, despite your rather outsized claims.
So instead of going after abusers, and putting in place policies and practices that prevent abuse and get rid of it when it does happen, you want to throw away the careers of good priests everywhere. And you want to exclude great leaders from the Scouts who want nothing more than to promote the lives of the kids in their neighborhood.
So called “Your Fellow Catholic”,
For your information, it is already BSA policy that no adult is to be alone with boys!
I myself have instructed an adult volunteer at a Summer Camp that he had to leave the tent flap open when playing cards with the boys.
God bless, yours in Their Hearts,
Kenneth M. Fisher
“decades of research” is garbage talk, YFC. Sodomy and effeminacy are no different today than they ever were.
No there were not many girls abused. Less than 10% while the rest was male on male abuse….
Ronnie, in the John Jay study 19% of the victims were girls, under the age of 10, 50% were girls. Also, this only went up to the age of 17. Of people over 18 involved in relationships with priests, the majority are women.
Whether it was 10% or as high as 19% or females who were abused, the overwhelming majority was homosexual abuse.
The female abuse was less than 15% the rest was male abuse, whether it was true pedophilia at around 5-7% and the rest post-pubescent boys and young men.. That’s homosexual abuse….
The hell with the APA, YFC; it is depraved in its attempt to attack God, His Church and anyone else. Sodomy has no justification, none at all, but is totally condemned by God, and thus by His Church. All efforts by sodomites to feel good about their behavior is doomed due to human nature created by God; This is one reason why sodomites always play the worm not quite dead yet by the tequila … they constantly twist and turn what revelation God has supplied humanity and also nature. Sodomites not only accuse God of making gay penguins but they’d try to convince us that everything is gay.
There is no need for the BSA to “include” homosexuals, or lesbians in its leadership. They have been rousted by the Rabid Homosexual Agenda, and someone in their leadership counsel has been threatened in some way, with something that they think they have to protect for themselves, or someone they care for. I say to those persons, leave the BSA. you would be better off having a millstone tied around your necks and tossed into the sea than to continue to pursue a path that will lead astray every boy who joins the scouts after the change, if that is your aim. You will be held accountable before God, which is far worse than to be embarassed before man, here on earth.
Life Lady good comments, now with that said, I now understand why some people call the “gay” agenda…The Gay Mafia….they sure are a mafia of some sort….
The following was sent yesterday to the National BSA Headquarters:
As a 30+ year Scouter, Weblos, and Troop 73. My father was a Scouter as well. I am appalled about what the Board of Directors may do today.
If you yield to the planned infiltration of Scouting (they purposely got their corporate shills installed), you might as well scrap the “Youth Abuse Protection” program.
As a Scouter, I once visited Canterbury, England. While there, I had the pleasure of meeting a fellow Scouter who had actually known Lord Baden Powell. He told me that the surrender of English Scouting to the sodomites had been a total disaster resulting in the best of Leaders resigning and many parents pulling their boys out.
I have been inactive lately, but recently told Mike Mannix, Scoutmaster, Troop 73 that I was willing to be active on a stand-by as needed basis, however, if you surrender to the sodomites’ pressure, that offer is NO LONGER VALID.
I know a lady, she actually recruited me back into Scouting and her husband was a long established Scouter/OA. She told me that she stopped her daughter from going to Summer Camp when she learned that Lesbians were Camp Counselors.
I have already removed all of the BSA stickers I had on my car.
The women resisted the betrayal of the Girl Scouts by starting the growing “Heritage Girls.” It now may be time for “Heritage Boys!”
Please do not betray the Boy Scouts of America.
Kenneth M. Fisher, Scouter, Troop 73
Founding Dir. Concerned Roman Catholics of America, Inc.
The real issue here is not about having scouting adults who are open homosexuals as leaders or scouts who are openly homosexual because of fears about child abuse. This issue and forced decision are ideological. The proposed new policy of the national organization will open individual scout units to persecution for their religious principles. Church sponsored groups, of which there are hundreds, will be forced to disband. Homosexual adults and homosexually inclined youth are included in scouting if they respect the guidelines of the organization, they are not excluded from membership because of sexual orientation, but just like the homosexual marriage issue, this is a intentionally divisive strategy by those who would seek to disenfranchise groups whose moral principles oppose the promotion of homosexuality as a normal lifestyle. Don’t play into the hands of the people who engineered this crisis by verbal hand wringing about protecting youth from predatory homosexuals. The sexual revolutionists love this. Scouting, just like any modern organisation, has many mandated protections for the youth that participate in scouting activities and adults can never be alone with an unrelated scout. Even unrelated scouts that are more than two years apart in age cannot sleep in the same tent alone. We need to keep scouting clear of making rules on the national level about allowing homosexuals in scouting. It will harm local units and leave them powerless to defend themselves against impossible demands.
The problem, Maria, is that such scout leaders will soon be preaching from their bully pulpit that Johnny has two fathers and Susie has two mothers and that that is normal and just fine — just as YFC is doing now on here. They have ruined some of the public schools with this sewage already.
Anne, I agree. What I am saying is that we should not help the trouble-makers by confusing this issue. Every scout group is autonomous, most sponsored by community organisations and hundreds sponsored by churches. The issue is that when the national scouting organisation makes a policy statement about allowing openly homosexual scouts and adult leaders into scouting, local groups will attempt to uphold the principles of the sponsoring group and many, if not most, will be forced to disband. BSA as a national organisation has attempted to uphold Judeo-Christian/religious-moral values and in so doing has provided support for its chartered units. If the national organisation buckles, local units will be hounded out of existence. We don’t need to talk about child sexual abuse here. This is about denying private groups their civil liberties and it is aimed at religiously affiliated troops. When I said that the issue is ideological, I meant that it is a parallel issue to homosexual marriage being used to promote the universal acceptance of the homosexual lifestyle. I am opposed to a statement by BSA National Committee to allow open homosexuals participation in scouting because their real agenda is to destroy the moral and religious basis of scouting. I think the discussion here about sexual predators just plays into the homosexualist’s agenda to make them appear as “victims” of discrimination.
I misspoke, I do not blame the entire BSA National Committee for this move, but some of its members who are responding to the pressure of donor corporations to the national organisation. These donors are threatening to pull away if this policy of homosexual acceptance is not made. The National Committee owes much more to the entire base of the scouting movement and its principles than to any number of arm-twisting, amoral, social-engineering commercial donors!
Maria, you are right. Let me put a little more meat on the bone. This is a question of a group setting its own membership requirements. But, at the same time it is corporations stating that they can no longer support an organization that “discriminates”. Corporations have extensive equal opportunity programs. The larger the corporation, the larger the EEO department and the more extensive the staff. Most corporations state that they will not discriminate on the basis of gender or race, religion or gay/lesbian issues. They are monitored by the government, report their efforts to not discriminate and their affirmative action programs. They cannot support organizations that “discriminate” and still look their employees in the face and say that they are taking affirmative action. They best intentions of the company leadership to support the Scouts will not be tollerated by the employees. A second thing to keep in mind is that the Scouts are chartered by Congress. How can the government support affirmative action and still discriminate by chartering an institution that does? It is a complicated issue for companies. No CEO wants to get up at the annual meeting and face a crowd of people demanding that the company change its policies because of discrimination. The government requires that companies not discriminate because of race, nationality, gender, handicap, religion, veterans, and gay/lesbians. And maybe a few more. The Scouts can do what they want, but the companies can support perceived discrimination.
What do you think should be done with boys who are gay or perceived to be gay, Maria? Should they have their own organization? I am sure that as we speak that there are many gay boys in the boy scouts. People just don’t know that those kids are gay. If you don’t think gays should be in the boy scouts, what can be done to ascertain that no gays are in the boy scouts? Isn’t it better just to not discriminate?
Actually, Bob One, there is no federal employment protections for LGBT individuals. There is one test case that the EEOC took, which said that Title VII of the Civil Rights Acts apply to transgender individuals, but it hasn’t yet been tested for LGB.
The Employment Non-Discrimination Act has sat in committee for years. Nancy Pelosi, Harry Reid, and John Boehner have sat on their hands on this issue.
I believe the President has signed an executive order prohibiting discrimination by the US government, and has been considering an EO to ban it by contractors as well. But that has been sitting on his desk for months and months – he can act at any moment, or he could also sit on his hands as he has been doing.
In every country where the Communist took over, Scout Leaders and Scouts were the first to be executed, priests and religious followed closely.
Why you ask, it is simple, scouting teaches leadership, and Communist cannot allow non-Communist Leaders.
On my last Chartres Pilgrimage, I had the pleasure of meeting the French retired General who was in charge of restoring Scouting to formerly Communist countries.
God bless, yours in Their Hearts,
Kenneth M. Fisher
There are no communists taking over, there are no executions, and Scouting is alive and well in the good ole USA. Sleep a little better tonight, my friend!
Except for who is in the White House, you know the guy you voted for, his parents were both avowed Marxists, as was his mentor Frank Marshall Davis. Those are facts YFC, as hard as it is for liberals to accept them… hubris will bring him down…
The sexual revolutionists love … better word is crave … as much abuse as they can find. Call it creation abuse, because they will abuse all of creation.
Yes, Maria. The aim of sodomites is to rape all of creation and then conquer God as well … It is a demonic movement.
Read the entire chapter 1 of Romans……St, Paul teaches well!
Sodom and Gomorrah did not become gay in one day; they subtlely stole the virtue from their neighbors little by little, until they were all perverse. At that point, they made their play for God by trying to gang rape His angels. The rest of the story is history … I mean, toast.
@Mark: I really believe that this is the most important issue for all boys because adolescence is a time of searching, finding the self, learning to operate as a social being. Scouting has set up high standards for its leadership. A great scoutmaster is a man of faith, personal integrity, a leader who is both mature and compassionate; a patient teacher who challenges the youth that he is guiding to become responsible adults with self respect and high moral values. Individual scout units choose their own leaders from the community that they represent. Every scout deserves to belong to a unit that preserves these high standards, not be subjected to political mandate and social engineering schemes. Boys who are struggling with their sexual identity need guidance and support. All boys need to develop self discipline, moral integrity and self control to become the men and leaders of tomorrow. Boys who are eager to join scouting are looking for adventure, new skills and camaraderie. Sex should not be an issue. The moral values of the sponsoring group should be respected.
Maria I agree with much of what you said. Especially this: “Boys who are struggling with their sexual identity need guidance and support. ”
There are two points that this statement raises. First is that boys who are struggling with their sexual identity are prohibited from being scouts in the first place. They are rejected by the organization. It is very difficult for me to see how rejection and “guidance and support” are compatible paths.
Second, boys struggling with any issue, regardless of what that issue is, benefit from the guidance and support of adults who have struggled with the same or similar issues and went on to resolve those struggles to become a healthy, integrated, faithful adult. They can lend a compassionate, patient ear. I wouldn’t go so far as to say that adults who haven’t struggled with the same issue can’t be great role models…clearly they can…but if they are forced to carry the institutional message of rejection, then they are greatly hindered in that mission.
Sexuality is one aspect of a person. The whole person is addressed in scouting. If a boy is interested in scouting and joins a unit, behaves responsibly and respects himself and his fellow scouts, no one rejects him. If he joins a unit that has religious sponsorship, he and his parents know what the teachings, belief and morals of their faith teach. His sexual proclivities remain a private issue and any guidance he receives from parents or counsellors should be a private issue. The desire to sexualize every aspect of our culture is destructive and treacherously misguided. The bald attempt to force scout groups to do so is doubly destructive. Malicious individuals who have no interest in scouting except to challenge and mock its moral foundation will be handed a free pass to wreak havoc and misery on an organisation that has provided guidance and support for youth for over a hundred years. Sexual revolutionaries will be served, but not boys, families or the community.
Of course sexuality is but one aspect of a person. But sexuality usually occurs in the context of relationships, and in the normal course of events, boys are going to talk about dating, going to the movies, going for hikes, etc etc., and if they have to constantly screen their conversations to delete any reference to their relationship, then the person is put under extraordinary stress.
Why do you think there is so much suicide among our youth? It is because adults demand unreasonable things of gay kids, like asking them to pretend they aren’t gay, or to pretend they aren’t dating someone, or pretend they aren’t questioning. Keeping up pretenses encourages kids to lie. And it suppresses their full development. And the next thing you know, these kids act out in inappropriate ways. Just ask Cardinal Mahony.
If you are a Catholic, then you know what the Church teaches about sexuality. What Catholics believe about sexual acts is that their authentic expression is ordered by God solely within the sacrament of marriage. Marriage is a sacrament of complimentarity, that is, this union necessitates two sexes, man and woman to express the dual aspects of union and openness to life. Parents of Catholic boys should teach and model these values. Catholic scout troops teach and model these values. The best advice to scouts is to be modest and chaste and respectful to themselves and others. Scouting activities do not include “dating” or sexual discussions. You probably don’t realize that scouts spend their time together learning skills like knot tying, woodworking and outdoorsmanship…none of which necessitate any sexual declarations. Scouts find plenty to do without addressing sexual topics. They form lifelong friendships based on mutual interests. You are presenting a good example of the trouble that such sexualised policies invite. Boys who are active, healthy and socially well-adapted have a very low incidence of suicide. That is the goal of scouting for all boys. Parents, teachers, counsellors, siblings and close friends are the best support for boys who need assistance with subjective cases. If you insist on sexualising scouting, you will lose the objective perspective of simple friendship and the low pressure environment for personal development.
Boys in the boy scouts should not be having relationships. What is wrong with this world?
YFC, why do you keep coming to this site? You are not changing anyone’s mind about gays. I for one do not like you or anything you stand for, you are an example of the problem in the Church — gay men running around screaming for tolerance and fairness and forcing the rest of us to accept your perversions as normal. The Church must be purged of the gay clique that has infected it, if not by the clergy then by the Faithful laity.
The whole point is they shouldn’t HAVE “relationships” with same sex partners; at least not the type of relationships to which you are alluding. There is a vast difference between suffering from same-sex attraction and being gay. The ‘gay’ label, as the homosexual activists have loudly proclaimed in their own publications and functions for years, means specifically that the person is active in the homosexual lifestyle (and therefore homosexual acts) and promotes the homosexual lifestyle and activity as normal and healthy. They self-identify exclusively with and through their sexual activity and their whole personal self-image is bound up in the sex act itself.
These acts are entirely unnatural and therefore perverse and a slap in the face to God, as God said ‘Let US make Man in Our image’ and therefore made Man male and female, whose conjoining in one flesh begets life, thus imaging the TRINITY. The entirety of the first two chapters of Genesis is a marriage ceremony (the Hebrew marriage ceremony was 7 days long and consummated at the unveiling at the end of the 7th day) . Because the homosexual ‘sex’ acts (really mutual masturbation) are inherently sterile the participants objectify and dehumanize each other in the very act itself. That is, they use each other as an object of pleasure (dehumanizing the other person) and present themselves as objects of pleasure to be used (therefore dehumanizing themselves). The only truly Holy response to same-sex attraction is abstinence and celibacy.
Excellent post, Maria.
Non-thinking, YFC. Boys need influence by moral men, not gay men. You cannot bring good about by evil, as your argument slyly suggests.
Maria, I also agree with much of what you said also and also with what Your Fellow Catholic said. From what you wrote it seems that you are not really opposed to having boys who are gay or are perceived to be gay in the boy scouts. Boys who are gay also need to develop self discipline, moral integrity and self control. Some of these boys may also like camping, adventures, new skills and camaraderie.
Mark from PA, your problem is that you think every boy and girl and adult should blab to the world their innermost thoughts all the time. There is no need for a boy in Boy Scouts to announce to the whole world that he is attracted to the male sex. It would be like me going to a Christian meeting and telling everyone there that I was temped to cheat on my husband with one of their members. That would be just plain stupid. Adults and children need to learn to use common sense about what they say to others. Evidently you watch too much of these “tell all ” shows on the T.V. where they “air” their dirty laundry before the whole world. There is a time and place for intimate discussions, but the Boy Scouts is not it.
Anne T, I have a full time job and also stay busy looking after my elderly dad so I don’t have time to watch those “tell all” shows on TV where people air their dirty laundry. Actually as a young person I was overly modest so people didn’t really discuss sexual matters with me so I was somewhat sheltered. I have to laugh because when I was a teen my mother admonished me for saying the word “pregnant” at the dinner table and said I shouldn’t talk like that. I never really heard bad language growing up as I went to Catholic school.
Mark PA, it was that way when I was growing up too. My grandmother got upset when a neighbor lady told her she was pregnant in front of me when I was about eleven or twelve. Admittedly, it was too strict back then, but now it is far too, too open.
I thought that Denis Prager asked a thoughtful question yesterday. Should a heterosexual man now be allowed to be a Girl Scout leader as long as he is not known to be a pedophile?
Tracy, when I was in the Cub scouts, our leaders were den mothers. So they have women as scout leaders.
Mark, I am aware of this but as you well know women are not allowed to be “boy scout” leaders. There must be a reason that women are only allowed to be “cub scout” leaders.
This still ignores the question. Should a heterosexual man now be allowed to be a Girl Scout Leader as long as he is not known to be a pedophile?
The followup question is no doubt whether a gay man can be a girl scout leader. There is simply no end to perversion with these sodomites.
Those member of the Executive Committee who are advocating this are planted shills recruited for just this purpose.
God bless, yours in Their Hearts,
Kenneth M. Fisher
Because not enough men volunteered to be Scout Leaders, women are now allowed to be Boy Scout Leaders.
Even though I don’t agree with that, I must admit I have known some very fine women Scout Leaders who gave of themselves quite a bit.
God bless, yours in Their Hearts,
Kenneth M. Fisher