The following is an action alert sent out by the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops.
Protect People and Families Striving to Live in Dignity from the “Fiscal Cliff”
Tell your senators and representative that programs serving working poor families must be protected from the “fiscal cliff.” In discussing the various proposals, programs that help families escape poverty and live in dignity should be strengthened.
Current Situation and Background: Congressional leaders and President Obama continue to discuss a budget package to avoid the “fiscal cliff” at the end of the year by replacing automatic tax increases as well as across the board spending cuts put in place last year.
They are dealing with big numbers and important questions, however the record number of people living in poverty, and the millions more looking for decent work, should receive priority consideration.
Last week, Bishop Stephen Blaire, Chairman of the Committee on Domestic Justice and Human Development, and Bishop Richard Pates Chairman of the Committee on International Justice and Peace, wrote to Congress calling on Congress to avoid the “fiscal cliff” with a bipartisan and balanced agreement that raises adequate revenue and protects programs that serve families living in poverty. Read the letter HERE.
USCCB Position/Church Teaching: The Catechism of the Catholic Church states it is the proper role of government to “make accessible to each what is needed to lead a truly human life: food, clothing, health, work, education and culture, suitable information, the right to establish a family, and so on” (no. 1908).
The bishops’ criteria has remained consistent throughout the budget process: protect human life and dignity; the needs of the poor and vulnerable come first; and government and other institutions have a shared responsibility to promote the common good of all.
To read the original alert, click here.
The U.S. bishops continue to support an unsustainable welfare state. What good will it do for the “poor” when the U.S. economy collapses because the federal government has gone bankrupt from irresponsible spending on welfare programs and other unconstitutional and unnecessary entitlements?
The record number of people living in “poverty” would be better served by government policies that promote economic growth, which would spur an increase in jobs and in wages.
Furthermore, how many of the “poor” are “poor” because of their own irresponsible behavior? Is it government’s role to subsidize (and thereby encourage) vice or imprudence? Is that Church teaching? I think not.
Say, “No,” to more government handouts. Say, “No,” to higher taxes.
It is time that ALL bishops were required to understand the “Cloward Priven” principles before opening their big mouths,
At one time, a far better time, it was the Churches and the Private Institutions that were supposed to take care of the poor. When it became the domain of the government, and when the government had enough persons on the dole, America became Amerika because those persons on the dole could vote to steal more money from those who actually contribute to the system!
God bless, yours in Their Hearts,
Kenneth M. Fisher
Would that the Church provide for the poor! Even Catholic Charities are hopelessly dependent upon government and foundation grants to do their work. If Catholicism is to survive in the modern age, in my opinion, it would spend as much effort and fortune caring for the poor as it does in other matters.
AH said in the typical “social justice catholic” manner…the Church will always survive so long as it preaches Salvation of Souls through Christ and His Truth…Your crowds eternally preaching of “social justice” has nearly buried the Church….We just need to drive the liberals out of the Church and it will thrive like never before
“We just need to drive the liberals out of the Church and it will thrive like never before.”
Doesn’t sound very Christlike or Christian to me. It seems that many comments reflect a desire to return to the 14th Century Church. Others say “Let’s offer more Latin Masses and all will be fine.”
modestodick, I believe that Canisius is referring to excommunicating heretics from the Church. This is truly the Catholic way. Souls are at stake because many people believe the heretics within the Church. The mission of the Church has always been about the salvation of souls. Even a heretic may be converted once he/she is woken up by excommunication.
YFC, let’s look at some realism about some of these issues. The ideal situation is for people not to be poor. The “system” however doesn’t allow everyone to be self dependent. If we stipulate that up to 20% of the people on various support programs are gaming the system, that leaves another 80% who are in real need. Another ideal is for the church and other non-profits to take care of the poor – feed the hungry, cloth the poor, etc. The church does that up to a point. St. Vincent de Paul is very active in feeding and clothing the poor. The provide food to thousands of families each week in our diocese, they provide warm clothes for thousands of kids each fall, etc. Catholic Charities, depending on the diocese, provides a lot of services for immigrants – help with housing, training for jobs, help with rent, etc. The problem is, Catholics don’t give enough in the collection basket to support the work of these and similar institutions. SVdeP relies on parish gardens for fresh food in the summer, weekly contributions of food from parishioners, etc. but that just scratches the surface. They must rely on the local food bank to provide much of the food. Catholic Charities, in our diocese at least, can’t raise the millions of dollars that it takes to do its work, and that isn’t because employees are making big bucks. So, they need the assistance of government grants and foundation grants designed to be implimented by faith based groups. It takes a lot of money to do these things. As an example, at my parish I see the monthly collection for STVdeP with lots of one dollar bills. Ours is a very affluent parish. But, truth be told, we have not received good instruction on the spirituality of stewardship. We have a parish that receives about $5,000 per week in the offering basket. A friend of mine attends a main-line protestant congregation with about the same number of attendees each week. They are well trained in stewardship – their offering is about $30,000 per week. As long as government grants and foundation grants don’t have anti-catholic requirements, why not use the money available? There area real people out there that need a lot of help. Think about tomorrow when millions of people lose their unemployment because of the fiscal cliff fiasco. There are no jobs for those people, so more people will go on welfare and rely on STVdeP and Catholic Charities. Where will they get the money to help?
When the industrial/military complex doesn’t allow people to be able to make a living, raise a family, etc. it is the duty of the government to step in and ensure life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. It is not the people who have caused millions of jobs to be shipped to low paying nations. It is not the people who have scared the earth in search of coal. It is not the people, it is the system. When 1% of the people own the majority of the assets of a country, are we any better off than the USSR was? When our people are in bread lines, are we any better off than the people in poor countries? Too many of us, of my age group and yours, still think that America is the country we grew up in. It has changed because we concentrated on the few elites, and not the people. No person should go to bed at night hungry. No school child should study in an armed camp. No nation should be held hostage by the drug dealers of Mexico and other SA countries. No country should force its people to live in poverty because the big shots don’t want any more taxes to pay for health care, a basic right. This is the teaching of the church.
So Bob One, what solution do you propose?
You think that we are already the USSR, which apparently you do not like, so what do you propose? You blame the current “system”, which apparently you think needs changing. (by the way, I also blame the current “system” which has largely ignored the Constitution of the United States.) So what do you propose?
Bob One, if we taxed the top “One Percent” 100% of their entire income, how many days do you think their money would last to pay for the maintenance of the poor?
What typical left wing nonsense..I tell you what the problem is, when government unions are broken up for the corruption that they have caused. They bleed us taxpayers dry with their unending demands for more automatic increases in salaries and benefits. And another most people are poor in this country by the decisions they have made in life. Hard work is now considered evil and welfare a virtue, what needs to happen is the complete destruction of the welfare state, and no Bob One me paying for your healthcare is not a right, its a burden..
I wish the Bishops would say something like, “Okay politicians and bureaucrats, go over the cliff. When you hit rock bottom the Church will still be here ready, willing, and able to provide charitable services to those in need.”
I wish our Church was as ready willing and able to provide those charitable services as you believe, and as I wish. Unfortunately, the Church in the US has depended upon government to subsidize it’s charitable obligations. Catholic charities would fold without government help. A sad state, to be sure.
It is none of the Church’s business to get involved in financial policies, especially when She does not have her facts straight, and when her model is Karl Marx. Our Blessed Lord said, “Give to Caesar what is Caesar’s, give to God what is God’s!” The Catholic Church once was the provider of welfare, hospitalization, education, and other charities. But Vatican II changed all that, and the Church seemed to gladly give up this mission she had for over a thousand years. It is the faulty leadership of the American Catholic Church that is mainly responsible for the moral decay and monatary disaster our nation finds herself in. If the Church were doing her duty, instructing her flock to serve God first, and then to be charitable to one’s neighbor, this mess would have been not as great.Bishops are commanded by their office to teach, govern, and sanctify, but most of them have only been stooges for liberal and marxist causes. As a result, the laity are confused and scandalized; membership in the Catholic Church decreases, while Satan and his army of demons increases its influence over the world, leading countless souls to hell.
Economics is complex. Most, maybe 80%, of the adult population has no clue, but simply go where their noses lead them. The omission by the bishops of other views of economics and finance puts them into the category of deceivers. But maybe they don’t have the intellect to understand, and rather than deceiving us, they are allowing themselves to be used as pawns by the world, the flesh and the devil. But this ignorance or stupidity is indeed their fault: If they were holy, then they’d share the intellect of Christ, which obviously they don’t. One more look at why the Pope has called the bishops to step up from whatever they’re wasting their episcopacies at and reach for holiness instead. It seems that they presume that their reception and ministering the sacraments gives them this share in Christ … But this is not the case, as any reader of the Gospel would see. Jesus: “Not by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God”!!! These presumptive bishops do not follow what Jesus says here, or in many other Gospel accounts.
Father Karl and Shai you are both right. I believe, and this is my own sentiments on things, but I think that the punishment we receive is losing more of Christ’s sheep to other sects. The faithful will continue to feel persecution and even they will lose their own children as well due to the demonic forces that are attacking our faith. This is our punishment because our church leadership is lacking holiness and faithfulness to Christ.
Luke 12:53: The father shall be divided against the son, and the son against his father, the mother against the daughter, and the daughter against the mother, the mother in law against her daughter in law, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
Father Karl, I don’t think the Catholic Church and its leaders are responsible for the moral decay and monetary disaster our country finds itself in. I think a problem has been the concentration of more and more wealth in fewer and fewer hands. The Church still is a large provider of education, health and social services. Because of this, what the bishops have to say on this matter is important. A lot of people in poverty are senior citizens (but much less than is years past due to Social Security) and people with health problems. Also large numbers are children. How can one blame innocent children for being poor. Many poor children are the children of single moms or are in large families with not enough money to go around. If we are truly pro-life we need to support and advocate for these children and that is what the bishops are doing in many of their statements.
Mark from PA, I agree with you that “one problem has been the concentration of more and more wealth in fewer and fewer hands”. The best example of this is the IRS.
PA you are a reliable mouth piece for liberal nonsense…
Fortunately for the sake of truth and the good of the world, Catholic teaching contradicts your misunderstanding of the Church’s business, Father Karl.
It looks like people who protest the good comments of a good priest thus far, are fortunately their own opinion.
I agree, Fr Karl, and since when does supporting the poor come before Church teachings, morality and the ten commandments? Social justice has become some unfortunate souls’ God, apparently. As to bishops, I’ll post this quote again that I sent yesterday…And for the discussion on bishops a quote from a letter by Alexander Solzhenitsyn to a Soviet bisphop: ‘Why are communications which come down to us from the highest level of the Church so conventionally serene? Why are all church documents so benignly placid, as if published among the most Christian of people? While one serene epistle follows another, might not the very need to write them vanish in some stormy year: there will be no one to address them to, no flock will remain outside the Patriachate’s Chancellery.’ (from Fr.Rutler’s book)
Does the Catechism of the Catholic Church say anything about spending money that you don’have.????
Did the bishops send a simiiar letter warning about dificit spending and passing the debt on future generations?????
Is this hierichal hypocrasy or what??????
Yes Larry, the CCC teaches “COMMUTATIVE Justice”.
CCC: ” 2411 Contracts are subject to commutative justice which regulates exchanges between persons and between institutions in accordance with a strict respect for their rights.
Commutative justice obliges strictly; it requires safeguarding property rights, paying debts, and fulfilling obligations freely contracted.
Without commutative justice, no other form of justice is possible.
One distinguishes commutative justice from legal justice which concerns what the citizen owes in fairness to the community, and from distributive justice which regulates what the community owes its citizens in proportion to their contributions and needs. ”
In addition St. Paul to the Thessolonians – 2 Thess 3:10-11
“For even when we were with you, we gave you this command: If anyone will not work, let hime not eat.
For we hear that some of you are living in idleness, mere busybodies, not doing any work. “
Does commutative justice include something like the Mosaic “jubilee year”, where all debt is extinguished every seven years? What would lenders do if we lived in such a system?
No. We can not make things up and add them to anything in the CCC. The CCC is from the Magisterium.
COMMUTATIVE JUSTICE which would include but not be limited to: purchasing any goods or services that we knowingly can not pay back within the agreed upon time,
and excessive debt – is found in the section of the CCC in the chapter on God’s 7th Commandment of: ” YOU SHALL NOT STEAL”.
#2411 on Commutative Justice is an important paragraph that many Bishops and the USCCB fail to teach “or recommend” to Federal, State, and Local Governments or even those of us in the pews.
The USCCB just seem to stand their with their hands out all the time.
It’s my opinion that would be good for the Church if the US Government did not give any money to the USCCB or their charities. Half the staff at the USCCB could be gone, assessing each Diocese less; and then the Bishops would teach Christ’s way – which is that it is up to each of us as individuals to help the poor (those unable to help themselves).
The Church and the Government should not be business partners for any reason. This is a cancer within the Church.
Always watch the USCCB Committees that make statements to the government about money, and ask yourselves – is this so the USCCB and its charities can get their hands on a piece of the taxpayer pie? Have you ever heard the USCCB tell the government to pay its debts, spend less, and get rid of waste, or to stop making contracts with employees (and their unions) that are above that of a fair and just wage for the work done ?
The recent REQUIRED legislation from Pope Benedict “ON the SERVICE of CHARITY” which can be found on the Vatifcan web site, will help weed out giving to those organizations that are at odds with Church teaching.
This will work if we are all vigilent and report abuses to the “Pontifical Council Cor Unum”. Contact info for them is on the Vatican web site.
When is the Bishop going to preach about the Federal and State Governments:
paying all their own debts;
stopping government waste;
and stop spending money it does not have ? – – – These are the real drain on families and the cause of high taxation.
High taxation discourages small and large business owners from expanding, and providing needed jobs.
First obligations first.
I have not heard anything from Bishop Blaire or the USCCB on these critical and important matters – which are the cause of joblessness and legitimate poverty.
He has not spoken about ILLEGITIMATE poverty either – able bodied people who refuse to work to support themselves and their families (leaches on all taxpayers) – 2 Thess 3:10.
Where are all the comments? They are never here any longer.
The editor replies: Comments are being posted on an irregular basis over the holiday season.
Their here…just snoozing a little because we are hopefully focusing on Christ’s birth….hopefully our prayer life has increased and we are in reflection mode. This is truly a beautiful Christmas, I too had my own tragedy happen to our family this Holy days season but what kept me strong was focusing on the birth of Jesus…when we went to Midnight Mass for Christmas, they had baby Jesus right up in the middle of the alter, baby Jesus had his arms reaching out, I almost imagined/felt His arms reach out to me.
How can we not fall in love with Christ the child, Christ the King, Christ our everything? With all the grief, tragedy’s in our life’s, it was Christ that helped us endure. Some of us were wondering, why did we have to have this happen to our family now during these holidays? Then after much reflection, it was actually great timing, because it is Christ’s birthday that is helping me endure. I found strength in His good news, in His birth! So even though the popular view would have been “not during these holidays.”…after much reflection and spiritual growth, I found it a perfect timing. Although those causing the tragedy, are offending Christ…but it is the faithful that look to His birth for greater comfort and joy….and it is through His birth that the sinners will repent someday…that is the HOPE that Jesus’s birth brings.
Praise be Jesus Christ!
Infant Jesus of Prague, you have said “The more you honor Me, the more I will bless you” give to Your servant who honors You the grace to know Your Will and to love all those who love You. May all those harmed be healed and may You bring great good from this evil.
A beautiful prayer Anonymous. God bless you
Bishop try to stick something you know, we are already insolvent due to the massive welfare state that you happily support…
Maybe lots of them do, which would explain their silence.
Well, if you believe the “massive welfare state theory”, you ought to know that catholic social service agencies and catholic relief agencies are huge beneficiaries of government largesse. Most would fold without government help.
Folding would be good, the the Church in the USA could get back to SUBSIDIARITY, SOLIDARITY, and helping those truly in need, – not giving to the leaches in society who refuse to work yet own the latest cell phones, tv’s, ipads, computers, etc that are not necessary to feed and clothe the family.
2 Thess 3:10-11.
And the government could concentrate on creating an economy condusive to private sector job creation.
Mike is totally right, they should fold and have them get back to Subsidiarity and Solidarity…
The last paragraph of the article above states that the bishops’ criteria in the budget process is consistent: “…protect human life and dignity”. It is apparent that “human life” does not include human life in the womb since the bishops fail to call for the deletion of tens of millions of dollars for Planned Parenthood.
Good catch Laurette !
By law, no federal money goes for abortions. So no, Laurette, you don’t get to run a victory lap on that one.
Your Fellow Catholic, how about the Federal money that goes to Planned Parenthood. Money is fungible. When Planned Parenthood receives our Federal tax dollars, it frees up their other money to be used for abortions.
YFC spreading liberal lies.. federal money goes to planned parenthood, the nations biggest abortion provider…. FACT…
Bishop Blaire should pay more attention to his flock attaining salvation than in being constantly in the economic fray (an area of which he knows little, except to sound like a People Magazine expert). How about looking at starting a Latin Mass or two in your diocese, as the Holy Father virtually ordered all bishops to encourage? How about fostering the study of Latin in your local seminary, Bishop Blaire? By focusing on the liberal aspects of decision-making relating to the “fiscal cliff,” Bishop Blaire forecasts more than he likely wishes regarding the true nature of the USCCB, which act like an unofficial arm of the Obama Administration. In fact, the USCCB should probably ask the President if it might so serve in his Administration, given its unflagging devotion to the President’s social program. What are abortion and homosexual sex, after all? What a complete disaster for the American people to have bishops of such weak faith, or failed intellect, that they cannot see what their “policies” influence. Obama is President because of Catholics voting for him, and the bishops had an enormous support to the conscience of those Catholics in their voting guidance and in their various papers, conference statements, and individual actions that seemed to fully embrace the President and his policies. The bishops need to see the killing field that they helped to create. Oh well — Merry Christmas, Bishop Blaire. I think the Church was founded by the Christ Child, the same kind of child that the CDC suggests is slaughtered over one million times a year in the USA.
YES! FINALLY WE HAVE AN ANSWER! If only we all learned Latin and used Latin in the Liturgy would our government get its books in balance!
What is that supposed to mean?
An idiotic comment from a “social justice catholic” I ‘m sure he attends a “welcoming and progressive parish” where the salvation of souls is not even considered……
“It is not from your own possessions that you are bestowing alms on the poor, you are but restoring to them what is theirs by right. For what was given to everyone for the use of all, you have taken for your exclusive use. The earth belongs not to the rich, but to everyone. Thus, far from giving lavishly, you are but paying part of your debt.”
Saint Ambrose (4th century)
You will not be able to claim “helping the poor” on your judgement day when it is through FORCED taxation.
All good works must be voluntary.
Jesus never forced anyone.
MIKE excellent comments. The goal of the Obama administration is to have more Americans be system dependent not God dependent. When Obama is done destroying America, there will be more and more Americans on some kind of government program…..that is not the real American way. While the honest folks keep working like dogs to support those who are system dependent!
“When there is a question of protecting the rights of individuals, the poor and helpless have a claim to special consideration. The rich population has many ways of protecting themselves, and stands less in need of help.”
Rerum Novarum, paragraph 29
ENCYCLICAL OF POPE LEO XIII ON CAPITAL AND LABOR (1891)
max, Tsk! Tsk! Tsk! And on Christmas Eve!
max is only vigorously defending parts, snippets or quotes from certain Encyclicals that make it appear as if all of his effort is meant to truly care about the needs of the poor when what is really being served is the setting up and empowering of those rules for radicals. Whatever it takes. Isolate a point, HAMMER only on partial truths that will fit your purpose while you vigorously SICKLE away any and every attempt to bring up the fact that the fullness of truth is not being taught by many shepherds.
max knows very well that Jesus said, “My people PERISH for lack of knowledge.”
Many are banking on that lack of knowledge. max might even try to claim that Jesus was talking about the fiscal cliff. Nothing should surprise us. This is not about hoping for the poor. This is about hoping that everyone is as dumb as a mud fence in order to pull the wool over unsuspecting and trusting eyes. If you can show up to deliberately twist the Gospel on Christmas Eve to serve a radical agenda, then we really know what is meant by the phrase, “The devil never sleeps.”
No max, Jesus came for the salvation of souls, not fiscal budgets or fiscal cliffs. Caring for the salvation of souls is the PRIMARY duty of Catholic Bishops. If you do not *Guard the Deposit of Faith* or *Teach the “FULLNESS” * of the Catholic Faith, you will NOT KNOW how to KNOW, LOVE and SERVE God in this world so that you may have Eternal Life to be with God.
“For the poor you have always with you: but me you have not always.” Matthew 26:11 Douay-Rheims
“For the poor you have always with you: but me you have not always.” Matthew 26:11 Douay-Rheims
…does this little quote mean you think JESUS is not longer with us, but the poor are?
your eisegesis (as opposed to intelligent exegesis) seems aimed at avoid helping the poor, which the LORD doesn’t like one darned bit.
“Karl have you been sniffing too much incense lately”
John 12: 3-8 “Mary then took a pound of very costly perfume of pure nard, and anointed the feet of Jesus and wiped His feet with her hair; and the house was filled with the fragrance of the perfume. But Judas Iscariot, one of His disciples, who was intending to betray Him, said, “Why was this perfume not sold for three hundred denarii and given to poor people?” Now he said this, not because he was concerned about the poor, but because he was a thief, and as he had the money box, he used to pilfer what was put into it. Therefore Jesus said, “Let her alone, so that she may keep it for the day of My burial. “For you always have the poor with you, but you do not always have Me.”
max, did you know that division, or divide and conquer, or lack of solidarity are all political ploys of Obama and his Democratic Party?
They can not win unless they demonize a particular group.
Higher taxes and over zealous regulations kill job creation.
There are no longer than many “rich” people in the USA.
“Thou shall not steal” – God
Envy is a capital sin.
“The Church’s love for the poor … is a part of her constant tradition.” This love is inspired by the Gospel of the Beatitudes, of the poverty of Jesus, and of his concern for the poor.
Catechism of the Catholic Church, #2444
The issue is that many Bishops are not teaching what Jesus taught – SUBSIDIARITY.
When as individuals we are judged, Jesus will ask each of us what we did to help the poor, He will not ask what any government did.
Helping the poor is not the issue, since all individuals have that obligation.
We need our Bishops to teach the Faith in its entirety according to the CCC.
MIKE I agree, we parents try to teach the faith but as years go by, our kids are getting mixed messages from our church, with the heretical Ecumenism efforts that causes our kids to think that our church is not the real Christian faith that Jesus started, with compromising the holiness and the true message of the gospels…then our Bishops have neglected the importance to teach true Catholicism, that is why we have so much division and indifference amongst God’s people.
Douay-Rheims Bible Luke 12:53: The father shall be divided against the son, and the son against his father, the mother against the daughter, and the daughter against the mother, the mother in law against her daughter in law, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
MIKE you raise a very interesting question, and you phrased it very well.
In my opinion, I believe we have both obligations. That is, to personally respond to the poor, and to create a society that responds to the poor. Part of that second aspect is that we can create a society that responds to the poor by legislating concern for them. I just find it impossible to believe that if we vote against poverty-centric issues and politicians that we will be absolved from culpability in the final days.
That is my opinion. I respect folks who feel otherwise, especially those who can present as clearly as you have.
But I would add an additional aspect to your point of view. If we rely upon personal responsibility when it comes to our treatment of the poor, and absolve government of action, shouldn’t we also rely upon personal morality and also absolve government when it comes to other aspects of catholic doctrine, as for example, same sex marriage?
If it is up to the Church to enact it’s vision for the world, and not to go to the state to enact those visions, then why is poverty different than interpersonal morality issues?
St. Thomas Aquinas said that forcibly taking money from one person to give to another person is theft. If you think our taxes are not taken without the threat of force, try not paying your taxes. WE are supposed to help the poor, not expect the government to do it.
Pete the government’s role is two-fold.
1) It should create an economy that encourages the creation of private sector jobs. Not creating a false economy that gets the government further into debt and then jobs become temporary based only upon government contracts.
All persons have the right and obligation to work.
2) It should assist us in helping those who are truly unable to help themselves due to legitimate illness, old age, orphaned children, and natural disasters.
My fellow fallen away Catholic,
What a good sign it is that you still “well recognize” MIKE’S wisdom and love of the FULL truth. Christ already established the ONE TRUE Church that recognizes and upholds the remedy for all spiritual poverty. When you selectively remove certain teachings of the Catholic Church, you cannot help to create a society that truly recognizes the poor. The blind cannot lead the blind or the poor. You have watered down truth to the effectiveness of a sugar capsuled placebo. You effectively work against helping the poor when you selectively choose to not see how you are offending God. You become blinded through habitual sin and become too immersed in recognizing the all too comfortable feeling of living in a state of mortal sin.
The Catechism Says:
#1855 “Mortal sin destroys charity in the heart of man by a grave violation of God’s law; …”
#1861 “…results in the loss of charity and the privation of sanctifying grace, that is, of the state of grace. If it is not redeemed by repentance and God’s forgiveness, it causes exclusion from Christ’s kingdom and the eternal death of hell…”
John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord
#1033 “…To die in mortal sin without repenting and accepting God’s merciful love means remaining separated from him for ever by our own free choice. This state of definitive self-exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called ‘hell’.”
#1874 “…This destroys in us the charity without which eternal beatitude is impossible. Unrepented, it brings eternal death.”
#1035 “…Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell.…”
Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
Romans 5:21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
#1033 “We cannot be united with God unless we freely choose to love him. But we cannot love God if we sin gravely against him, against our neighbor or against ourselves.
Catherine you have an amazing ability to string together words and phrases that are nonsequitors, yet you pretend to be saying something true, as for example when you wrote, for example, “You effectively work against helping the poor when you selectively choose to not see how you are offending God,” and also when you wrote, “When you selectively remove certain teachings of the Catholic Church, you cannot help to create a society that truly recognizes the poor.”
This implies that only orthodox catholics are capable of recognizing the poor. Obviously untrue on its face. As is the notion that sinning in matters completely unrelated to the poor or to poverty somehow magically makes poverty worse.
The Debt overwhelm the ability to help anyone unless the spending is restricted!
Bishop Blaire never speaks or writes without receiving a complete content clearance from Nancy Pelosi. She and her staff make it easy for him. They simply email over their talking points and he reads them off.
I have known Bishop Blaire for many years….he is not an evil or a malicious man. However Lenin did write about people like him….
Lenin called then useful idiots.
Jim, I find your comments about Bishop Blaire to be catty and unkind. I doubt what you are saying here in relation to the Bishop and Nancy Pelosi.
Mark from PA – Nothing remains hidden. Please Google, ‘Queering the Church’, topic ‘Deja Vu: Benedict’s escalating War on Marriage.” If we are to overcome good with evil Mark, then why are you doing what you are doing? You are correcting Jim about kindness, when you, yourself wrote the following dialogue about the Pope that I copied and pasted below? Mark, When CCD did the story on Bishop Sartoris I wanted to read more about Bishop Sartoris so I Googled up his name Bishop Sartoris and I saw an article written on Enlightened Catholicism on Bishop Sartoris. Thinking that this was a good website I checked it out and yes I was truly enlightened. There are no accidents. Mark I was truly surprised to discover a trail of very revealing and unkind comments that you are making on websites that do not accept Church Teaching. As Mark Davenport on one blog you made a reference to a post you made on another website about people loving their guns and how some women got upset with you. I remember that recent post Mark do you? Mark do you remember a while ago when the poster RR wrote that Mark from PA and Mark Davenport is the same individual posting on CCD? RR was right. I want to give you the opportunity to honestly respond.
Mark do you also post as Mark Davenport on Enlightened Catholicism and on another blog called Bilgrimage? This blog is run by William D. Lindsey who calls himself a theologian who has been rejected as outcasts from the Church because of his decision to live with his theologian partner Steve. There is even a caption at the side of the Bilgrimage blog that reads: “WE NEED IN EVERY COMMUNITY, A GROUP OF ANGELIC TROUBLEMAKERS”
Mark is this what you have been doing on CCD? Are you CCD’s angelic troublemaker who really does not accept “all”of the teachings? Please explain. This will certainly clarify for readers what you have been trying to accomplish on this website.
A Mark Davenport posted to William Lindsay (Bilgimage blog) that he made several comments on Steve Gershom’s blog titled, “Gay, Catholic and Feeling Fine, topic of thread titled ‘Survey’ so I checked that out and sure enough, you posted there as Mark from PA. Steve Gershom even questioned you about accepting Church teaching. Steve Gershom’s blog encourages chastity and it seems as if you were reporting back to William Lindsey that you had made somewhat of a pest of yourself by asking several questions. Steve Gershom finally could see that you were dodging his questions about accepting Church teaching. Mark were you also being an angelic trouble maker on a blog where those who struggle with same sex attraction try to help one another remain chaste? You even asked William Lindsey if they used that term SSA where he was from and he responded no and that you thought it was an insult. You have also posted the same on CCD that you did not like that phrase. Mark that is not overcoming good with evil. That is duplicitous and this undermines the Church teaching that you told Rick Delano that you loved. It is also duplicitous to use angelic sounding cherubic corrections to Jim when you are posting terrible things about the Vicar of Christ on blogs that consistently attack Church teaching and the Pope.
Here is one example taken from Terence Weldon’s website titled Queering the Church. The topic: Benedict’s escalating War on Marriage. Terence Weldon also posts on CCD.
Mark from PA
December 22, 2012 at 3:51 pm
What I find troubling about the Pope’s somewhat veiled attacks on gay people and gay marriage. In doing so he encourages those that hate homosexuality and have a strong dislike for gay people. He reinforces and affirms people in their prejudices. I find this to be very confusing. I think his upbringing in a society which viewed some people as less than fully human contributes to this.
December 24, 2012 at 11:34 pm
I go into this a little in my follow-up post, on how his words on gay marriage undermine his message of peace – and it’s claim that peace must include a deep respect for life. But the message he sends out about gay people, and his implied support for Uganda’s “Kill the gays” legislation, encourages both hate crime violence and even murder, and self- hatred that can lead to suicide.
Mark from PA
December 22, 2012 at 7:46 pm
I don’t see “If you are queer, we don’t want you here.” to be a very Catholic message.
December 24, 2012 at 11:35 pm
No – it’s not.
No more to be said.
Mark from PA, Please respond.
Mark from PA, You posted that Jimaroo wrote a catty and unkind comment about Bishop Blaire. I would like to make a correction to my own previous post. The story was about Archbishop Sartain not Sartoris and I incorrectly wrote the name Sartoris. I meant Archbishop Sartain. CCD’s story was about Archbishop Sartain and that is why I Googled Archbishop Sartain’s name and there was a link to this website called “Enlightened Catholicism”
“A place for Catholics who don’t find their Catholic identity in the standard definitions. “He drew a circle that shut me out. Heretic, rebel, a thing to flout. But Love and I had the wit to win: We drew a circle that took him in.” Edwin Markham
There was an article written on Enlightened Catholic on:
WEDNESDAY, APRIL 18, 2012
Google Enlightened Catholic: Topic The CDF Names Archbishop Sartain Overseer Of The LCWR
Mark I was enlightened after reading this heretical website. I thought this was a faithful Catholic website but I soon learned it was not. I had never seen such hate and anger written by those who call themselves Catholics. This anger is aimed at “those men in Rome” as you once referred to them. This anger is aimed aimed at the Holy Father and Church teaching. I noticed that you posted as Mark Davenport on a linked website blog called “Bilgrimage” where a side caption reads. “We need in every community a group of angelic troublemakers.” Is this what you are doing on CCD? Are you causing division by being an angelic sounding troublemaker on faithful Catholic blogs. That is wrong Mark. This is not overcoming evil with good. This is duplicitous. This is writing one way here and another way there.
Mark, How can you in good conscience correct Jim or tell Rick DeLano that you accept all of the teachings of the Catholic faith when you are posting unkind comments about the Pope on these heretical blogs?
Also Mark could you please answer why you wrote the very unkind comment about the Holy Father on the website called ‘Queering the Church”.
Topic: Deja Vu: Benedict’s escalating War on Marriage.
Is that website run by Terrence Weldon who also posts here on CCD?
Catherine, yes I am troubled by the Pope’s failure to speak out strongly against the “Kill the Gays” bill in Uganda. I think some of his statements stir up animosity against gay people. And yes, I admit that this is painful to me. I feel bad for what the Pope has gone through in his life. He grew up in a society that viewed some people as less than fully human. I find Bilgrimage to be one of the best blogs that there is. William Lindsey is a convert to the Catholic Church. He joined the Catholic Church as a young man because of the Church’s support for black people and standing up against prejudice directed against them. I have learned a lot from Mr. Lindsey. When my mother passed away earlier this year he expressed much support and kindness to me. He is more liberal than I am, it is true, but he accepts my opinions even if he does not always agree.
Mark, why are you so fixated on sex? I don’t go around flaunting my heterosexuality. So why are you so set on flaunting your homosexuality? And for what reason do you desire to be accepted by others so badly? Jesus certainly never said that if you follow him people will accept you. In fact, he predicted the complete opposite. If you have even a few good friends then you are surly more blessed than most.
Mark, Christians are rejected, Muslims are rejected, ugly people are rejected, beautiful people are rejected, poor people are rejected, children are rejected, aged people are rejected, heterosexuals are rejected, homosexuals are rejected………., blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
Mark, so really, what do you expect to ultimately gain if you finally feel accepted by everyone? (which, I can’t imagine that you don’t already realize is a pipe dream) St. Augustine said it best when he said, “Lord, our hearts are restless till they find their rest in You”.
Mark, the place where you are looking for peace will only lead to more bitterness and sorrow. Peace can only be found at the foot of the cross.
Mark from PA,
I would like to address my very first question to you before we discuss Uganda or Bilgrimage. Mark it is very important to see if you can be honest regarding a certain point. Mark, the Catholic Church contains specific *teachings*. Jim gave an opinion. You stated that you appreciated William Lindsey for accepting your “opinion.”
Mark, You showed complete intolerance for Jim’s opinion. You chose to call Jim derogatory names for the opinion that he posted. The very thing that you say you do appreciate in Mr. Lindsey, or others you did not follow through with yourself on CCD. Please respond.
I will quote one line that you quoted that inspires me, “Peace must include a deep respect for life.” These are beautiful words. Being truly pro-life is a challenge for all of us it seems.
Mark from PA, virtue is life giving. Vice is death giving. A “deep respect for life” means a deep respect for virtue. On the other hand, a “deep respect for vice” is the epitome of disrespect for life.
Tracy, since I am not openly gay and am not sexuality active with men I don’t feel that I am flaunting my sexuality. But I am openly Catholic.
Mark from PA, based on many of your previous post, I have no other recourse than to believe that your definition of “a deep respect for life” is different from mine.
While I am glad for your sake that you are not sexually active with men, (unless of course, you interiorly lust after men, then in Jesus’ eyes, you have already committed the sin of sodomy), it doesn’t change the fact that you keep bringing up the fact that you are attracted to men. From your many comments, I’ve gathered that you feel that if you were to flaunt your homosexuality in public that you would be marginalized by some and rejected by others. Do not these possibilities alone particularly bother you?
From my point of view, you are openly homosexual with me and others who read your remarks on CCD. (I am, after all, actually corresponding with a real person am I not?) So from where I sit, you are flaunting your homosexuality.
So let me ask you these important questions again. Mark, why do you desire to be accepted by others so badly? And, what would you expect to gain if you were to obtain acceptance from everyone? Peace???!!!
“Lord, our hearts are restless till they find their rest in you” (wise words of St. Augustine.) Peace I leave with you; my peace I give to you; not as the world gives do I give to you.” (Divine words of Jesus)
Catherine, I did not call Jim any names, I said his comments were unkind. I don’t agree with what he said about Bishop Blair being a mouthpiece for Nancy Pelosi. I didn’t attack him personally.
Tracy, I don’t think I keep bringing up the fact that I am attracted to men. I don’t really lust after anyone. What I post about on here is that I think gay people are equal in their humanity and dignity to straight people. I also think that gay people should be treated with respect and compassion and not discriminated against. I think gay teens should be sheltered from violence, bullying and discrimination. I think it is damaging to tell young people that they are disordered and less than others.
Mark, where do you come up with the idea that if someone is labeled as having a disorder this translates as him/her automatically being labeled as “being less human and lacking the dignity that others have” who do not have a particular disorder? There are many human disorders. Isn’t this the human condition? There are spiritual disorders and physical disorders of many and varied kinds. Didn’t Jesus come to heal humanity of these various disorders? I don’t recall Jesus ever having denied any human disorder in an attempt to validate an individual’s human worth as you seem to want to do.
I have no indication that homosexuals, whether it be youth or adults, are discriminated against and mistreated on such a massive scale as you seem to indicate, that they need special laws and thought police to protect them. I myself have been and continue to be surrounded by many homosexuals throughout my lifetime, in schools, workplaces (including co-workers and clients/customers) , churches, neighborhoods, etc, (I’m sure that by now I have encountered over a thousand or more openly homosexual individuals) and I can tell you that I have seen zero bullying or mistreatment taking place towards these individuals. I have, sadly, seen the opposite take place.
I’m beginning to wonder if you might live in a particularly bigoted part of the country where it is the norm to mistreat or maline any person or group who might be different. Philadelphia, PA is one such place well known around the country for this. I also suspect that you are visiting websites and hanging onto every news story which would seem to magnify the mistreatment of homosexuals. If there were websites and news stories exclusively dedicated to the reporting of the mistreatment of each and every women, child, pre-born person, white man, Christian, disabled person, business owner, store clerk, etc., etc., etc., you would be able to find an equal amount of, if not numerous more, sad stories of one human being mistreating another human being.
Tracy, I don’t think we are any more bigoted here than in other places. In my parish I don’t hear anything against homosexuality or gay people. I was sheltered as a young person and wasn’t exposed to a lot of hate. I have read things on the internet from fundamentalist Christians and these things are foreign to me. For example reading about what is happening in Uganda is frightening to me. Have you read about the “kill the gays bill” there? Fundamentalist Christians from the US have gone to Uganda and stirred up hatred against gay people. These people believe that the homosexual orientation is in and of itself sinful. This is not Catholic teaching. I wish the Church would speak out more forcefully against such such treatment. I am thankful for those Catholics who do speak out against discrimination and mistreatment directed towards gay people. I have been inspired by many wonderful people that I have met who have spoken out against such injustices.
Mark, if you live in Philadelphia, then all I can tell you is that outside of that city, even as far away as California, has a well known reputation for being one of the most intolerant and bigoted cities in the Country. I imagine, of course, that few Philadelphians would accept this label, but that alone hardly proves that the reputation doesn’t have some grain of truth.
Anyway, now all you can give me of this supposed wide spread dehumanizing of homosexuals is this one particular injustice in Uganda? This validates what I told you in my last post. To my knowledge Uganda is riddled with injustices. So you want the Church to speak out more forcefully against this particular injustice in Uganda. To what end? The Church has always condemned murder. The most heinous murder of all, which is happening year after year by the millions throughout the world, is the unmitigated slaughter of unborn children in the womb all for the crime of being inconvenient to someone more powerful than they.
Mark, I now see that your real agenda for posting so much about the supposed widespread dehumanizing of homosexuals is that you want the homosexual orientation to be accepted as ordered by God. The fact is that it is disordered (the Church teaches this, and common sense teaches this). The nature of the homosexual disorder, unlike many other human disorders, puts the soul of the one who suffers from it in serious danger. Why? Because if this disorder is acted upon it can be deadly to a person’s soul. Isn’t this the ultimate tragedy? The Church, therefore, is right, just, and charitable to assist homosexuals in leading chaste lives. Mark, as a Catholic, if you really cared about those suffering from SSA then this is where you would be putting your energy as well.
The Church’s primary mission has always been, and will rightly always be, for the salvation of souls. Jesus himself said, “what does it profit a man to gain the whole world and lose his soul?” Mark, the utopia you are looking for will only be found in heaven. To believe otherwise is to accept a heresy. Heresy is the ultimate destroyer of mankind and civilization.
Catherine thank you and God bless you for exposing this to us….we need to know the truth about certain individuals who pretend to be faithful to the faith. It’s good to point out fraud! We must be set free from lies!
Tracy, I live in the Scranton Diocese. I didn’t know that about Philadelphia. I have just in the past few years learned about the cover-ups in the Philadelphia Archdiocese. It is upsetting to me. As a young person I would have never believed it. Philadelphia has a reputation for being a very conservative Archdiocese. The Church is more conservative here in PA, I think. As a city, Philadelphia has always had a large black community, who have also been involved in politics and community affairs. Irish Catholics in NE Philly have also been an important part of the city. I think we have a wonderful bishop and we have many wonderful priests in our Scranton diocese. Historically, we had many ethnic churches here in the Scranton Diocese but in the last few years many parishes have been consolidated. This is sad but in some places it was necessary due to population losses in the Lackawanna and Wyoming valleys.
Mark, thanks for the insight. I guess my banter about Philadelphia’s reputation gave you the perfect opportunity to duct from the most important issue at hand. One point for Mark! I wish for your sake though, that it was one point toward heaven.
Tracy, you state that you have been surrounded by many gay people over your lifetime. Do you view all of these people as disordered? To tell you the truth, I was never taught that gay people were disordered. This is not part of my faith tradition. Church documents that I have read that label gay people as disordered were written after I was out of college. Before I was on the internet I was totally unaware that the Church viewed gay people as disordered. I was taught that we were all created by God, we were all his children, so the way I was taught, gay people were created by God too. So I do not view homosexuality as a disorder but just part of the diversity of nature. And yes, I believe that calling it the homosexual disorder is dehumanizing. It separates out gay people as a set of beings less than other people. It is akin to how Germans in the 1930’s viewed Jewish people. Not as good as other people, inferior, defective. I don’t think it is right, just or charitable to view people as disordered and therefore inferior and defective.
PA, do you view those who are pedophiles just part of nature as well? I am tired of PA and his all gays are victims worldview.
Canisius, all people are part of nature so that would include pedophiles. However, these people are criminals and they harm young people by their acts. It isn’t a crime to be a homosexual person, to have a homosexual orientation. All gay people are not victims. In many countries they have equal rights and are not mistreated by most. I read an article that said that gay people are more likely to end up taking care of elderly parents. They are also well represented in the caring professions. Different people have different gifts.
Jim Aroo’s is one of the most idiotic comments I’ve read in a while. There is absolutely no substantial fact he has presented in his attack on the Bishop, and yet he has seen fit to ridicule a Bishop of the Church, tantamount to calling him an “idiot.” Where is his substantiation for this cowardly attack? Yes, cowardly because you can easily hide behind a fictitious name like “Jim Aroo” while castigating public figures, without proof!
Even he had presented proof, is this the right forum for such an attack? I tell you: it is not!
look who’s talking…geeze
Man, some Bishops are committed socialists. This sort of talk when no one shows up for confession is sort of troubling.
what happened to God providing for his people?
I’ve read and re-read you 2 sentences. It appears as if you have cut and paste some clever one-liners in a row. I have no idea what you are talking about. Please feel free to express your own opinions on this California Catholic Daily blog. I think I speak for all of us when I say that we would welcome something genuine and well expressed.
Doesn’t the Bible say that we should give to each according to his/her needs? Doesn’t it say that we should give all that we have? Doesn’t the teaching of the Church say that the poor should ge special attention and help? Those of us, myself incluided, that think that what we have is ours because we earned it don’t understand the teachings of Christ. We need to live a life in which we have only what we need. I wish I could do better at that, but that new car is always there, the new phone calls my name, etc. I have a car, a phone, at TV, etc. Why do I need another one? Why should we have prime rib for dinner on Christmas when so many can’t afford any food. The reason we have poverty in this country is not because all of the poor are lazy, its because the rich and the government create a culture where it is hard to find a job, feed a family, etc. If someone works for $12 an hour, they are very poor even they they work 40 hours a week. Its seldom the people that are the problem, it is the system. Fr. Karl, as usual, is terribly wrong, again! It is precisely the Church that should get involved to advocate for the system that creates poverty, low paying wages, systematic burgalry of the national treasure, etc.. And, I am a conservative republican, although I hate to admit it after the antics of the members of congress, most of them stooges of the NRA and Norquist. Sorry for the tangent, but we do have to ask more of our politicians.
Bob One you are hardly a conservative….”each according to his need” straight out of Karl Marx, Who the hell are you to tell me that I can only have what I need, I work a full time job and have two side business and I will be damned if bleeding heart bolsheviks like you tell me I can only have what I need. Why should I have prime rib dinner, because I work hard for it. I reject your liberal guilt trip. You know why there is poor in this country because they make terrible life choices and they do not value education. They would rather be preoccupied with carnal pleasures, drink, drugs and gaming the system. I know of a woman who gets free housing, food stamps and has 5 different kids by 4 different men. In your upside down world this woman is to be praised and those with ambition are evil. And no Fr. Karl is right and you are wrong… When welfare is as difficult to obtain as a building permit there will be true justice in this society….I am tired of the political class and parasitic class living off the middle class.
Canisius, sorry to upset you. But I too worked two or three jobs at one time. I worked my way up the corporate ladder. I’m in my mid seventies and still work part time by choice. We have been very lucky over the years. We live in a beautiful home in a gated community with wonderful friends. But less than two miles from my home are thousands of people who have no food. The local parish feeds hundreds every week. And, they are not shiftless people. They would work if they could find a job. They are laid off engineers, middle managers, etc. Their jobs went to China. That is why they are poor. Somehow, I just don’t think I help ehough.
I know shiftless and lazy people who think they are owed a living or a government check and when I give to charity its to actual poor people not ones who think they are poor because they dont have cable TV. I can tell by your admitted age that you have been corrupted by the “spirit of vatican 2 which believe the Church is nothing more than a giant social welfare agency…..thankfully your generation will soon be gone and replaced by more traditional Catholics who will undo the damage your generation has wrought….
Listen to yourself! “We have been very ***LUCKY*** over the years.” Oh dearest Bob One, without even realizing it, you sound just like the individuals who casually discount the placement of ORDER that is due to Our Lord and then they falsely credit their well being to ***LUCK***. There are even those who also attribute their own retrieving of a free cell phone as being very lucky because after all, THEY did things right when they luckily voted for Barack Hussein Obama.
Yet Bob “One” there are those who DO KNOW BETTER! They credit God for sending His only begotten Son to establish the One True Church on earth. They have placed God as #ONE. Their faith and their trust is always in God because the have learned and they do believe in “all” of the Teachings of the Catholic Church. They would never cavalierly comment that it was at the discretion of the bishop’s “pleasure” to discount the ORDER of the placement of the Tabernacle wherever the bishop sees fit. We are not supposed to pleasurably hide the King of Kings from the spiritually poor. This creates even greater spiritual poverty. The kind of poverty that credits luck before crediting all blessings as being from God They would never praise or give undo credit to the ACLU no matter how difficult the times are or no matter what their career paths and jobs once were.
Bob One, As you sit behind your own self created illusion of a perceived gate guarded ivory tower, feeling such guilt and worry for not doing enough for those POOR POOR people on the poorer side of town, have you ever considered the reality that those very same people who you are viewing as poor, lost without jobs and hungry, are themselves looking at you living and suffering inside your false perception of guarded gates saying…
“Look at the great spiritual poverty of that man who calls himself Bob One. He is less than two miles from us living behind and inside the illusion of some big guarded gate. Our poor Bob is in his mid seventies and even after working up the corporate ladder to achieve all of that earthly perception of what is considered success, we can clearly see that Bob is still suffering from a great disease known as spiritual poverty. You see, we may not have all of the world’s trappings that have made Bob One still feel an emptiness within but we DO KNOW that every tiny gift that we receive has nothing to do with the word ‘LUCK”. You see, we are rich in the Holy Spirit because we realize that every little gift we receive is a GENEROUS BLESSING from God. We feel so bad that Bob ONE is still in the dark and not informed because after all, Bob One is not a completely shiftless guy, he is simply suffering from the pervasive disease of the day known as great spiritual poverty. Somehow we just don’t think that we have helped Bob One enough to recognize this truth.
Without the Guarded Gate of the Deposit of Revealed Truths contained in “all” of the Authentic Teachings of the Catholic Church, Bob One still credits the modern day false savior known as ***LUCK***and this is why our poor brother Bob is still dazed and confused. … “My people perish for lack of knowledge.”….Hosea 4:6
Catherine, when I say that I have been very “lucky”, I mean that God has given me much. I did not mean that I got it on my own. I know that all that we have is a gift from God, and that God bestows more on some people than others, at least economically. ‘Lucky” is meant to mean that much has been given. And, I don’t believe that I live in spiritual poverty, but you do have me thinking on that one issue.
Bob One I can tell by your admitted age you are infected with the “spirit of Vatican 2” in which the Church’s main job was transformed from the salvation of souls to a giant social welfare agency…..fortunately your generation is dying out and a younger generation will correct the errors that was caused by foolish men and women…..
Then rent your house’s rooms out to them, Bob One. I have one renter who started out his life in an orphanage, then a dozen foster homes, then twentyseven years in prisons. He pays his rent by holding out a work for money cardboard sign and doing odd jobs. He is fully tattooed but I managed to persuade him to have his waist length hair buzz cut (I paid for it), and he desparately wants to become a productive member of society for the first time in his life. He is making progress. When we all go to the lions’ den, Bob One, you will shrink in fear while I play with the lions. Recall the story told by Jesus of the rich farmer who had a new barn built for his bumper crop? The Lord came to him that night and sent him packing from this world, because he failed to give his abundance to the poor. Your new barn is in effect “all the jobs went to China”.
Bob One, you gave several examples of what you interpret the Bible to have said.
So let’s, for the sake of argument, suppose that you are 100% correct. I then have two important questions for you. Would you impose these supposed teachings of the Bible onto Americans who are not Christian and who do not accept the Bible, nor the teachings of the Catholic Church? And would you allow the non-Christians to limit their taxes to that which is mandated in the Constitution of the United States and impose the current tax system onto Christians only?
We Catholics, and other Christians need to decide which teachings of the Church – the Bible – we will abide by. The rest of the country does not have to be required to do what we believe, but they must let us do it. The Constitution says what the Supreme Court says it says. The issue of taxation is settled law.
I figured that you wouldn’t want non-Christians to be taxed based on what the Bible says, so automatically, I guess those “evil” non-Christian rich citizens are off the hook after all!!! How about all the Christians who interpret the Bible differently than you? We know they aren’t all interpreting the Bible the way you are. So, then would you agree that they are off the hook for taxation for the welfare state too???!!! How about those of us who interpret the Bible the way the last 10 popes have? Since all of those popes are on record about the evil’s of socialism, (All of these Popes have made it clear that socialism is incompatible with Catholic doctrine.), then Bob One, so am I. Nowhere in the Gospels will you find Jesus mandating the Roman Emperor to tax those he sees fit, so as to take care of the poor.
Bob One, really, you are a “conservative republican”? Should I suppose that you are faithful to the Magisterium of the Catholic Church as well?????!!!!!! (Oh, and, by the way, don’t point out to me that you are with the majority of “American Bishops” on this issue as there was a time when the majority of Bishops in the Catholic Church embraced the Arian Heresy. In the Kingdom of God, majority doesn’t rule! Only truth!!!!)
Word of advice on building permits: Build first, permit later.
Bob One, why do you stick with your Marxist liberation theology interpretation of the Holy Bible? Have you ever considered actual Catholicism?
Now that you mention the NRA, Bob One, let me point out how stupid you are: If maniac psycho killers had no access to guns, then they’d use bombs. Bombs are commonly used for such large scale suicide killings in many places and bombs are not as difficult to make as guns or bullets are. How, Bob One, would anyone stop a bomber, if no one had a gun? I know you cannot reason this out, so just go and ask someone, anyone, Bob One, to explain it to you.
Skai you are correct. I recall watching a news story that happened in Florida. A thief came in a store with a gun and tried robbing it and seemed very violent but in the back of the store, a good citizen, also with a gun, chased the thief out of the store, the thief shot at the good citizen but missed, the good citizen ran out chased him and somehow stopped the robber and caught him, waited for the cops to come by. Everyone considered this good citizen a hero.
If this good citizen wasn’t there to stop that crime from happening, who knows what could of happened. Praise God for that hero with a gun to stop it! I think that since morality is down, liberals are the ones who producing more evil people of today and that is why we are seeing more people kill and commit crimes. With the way the world is, it is safe to add that learning to use a gun properly, keeping it in a safe spot and having it available to defend one self is actually a great idea. But we just need laws that will protect good citizens from liberal lawsuits such as the ones that only protect the criminal more, A person should never feel guilt for defending themselves and should not be put on trial for not wanting to become a victim!
Skai you bring up good examples, also let us not forget that the 911 terrorists hijacked airplanes…they used the airplanes to kill people. that sure was a large scale operation…very frightening.
Bob One, where in Catholic teaching does it say that inanimate objects are capable of evil?
I was so angry when I was watching the NRA have a public conference, I was angered at the illogical activist who went on there with signs blaming the NRA for killing the children at that school, The NRA did not commit the crime, a young disturbing man did! Those idiots, why don’t they stand up with signs congratulating the NRA for all the times guns protected society. I am so sick of this nonsense of people not having common sense and common decency!
Bob One, one motto says: “When they come for your guns, give them the ammo first”. What do you think about that, Bob One?
Bob One, you have no business telling others what their needs are.
SMASH THE WELFARE STATE
Catholics voted for Obama, and now they just have to realize that the President wants to go over the fiscal cliff. With the huge gigantic deficits, the gravy train is coming to an end. Why don’t the Bishops ask for donations and dispense their own charity for those in need? The Salvation Army has a successful program that gets no government aid. They help the poor families, train persons to work, have rehabilitation facilities to treat drug and alcohol programs. The Salvation Army doesn’t have to take orders from the Federal Government either. If you take the money from the government, then you have to do as they say.
New International Version (NIV)
The Sheep and the Goats
31 “When the Son of Man comes(A) in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne.(B) 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate(C) the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.(D) 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom(E) prepared for you since the creation of the world.(F) 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in,(G) 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me,(H) I was sick and you looked after me,(I) I was in prison and you came to visit me.’(J)
37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’
40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’(K)
SORRY, CATHERINE…MERRY CHRISTMAS!
max, Don’t be SORRY, be Catholic. Inconsistent posting actions speak so much louder than apologies.
“Karl, have you been sniffing too much incense lately?” = Physician heal thyself. = Kiss of death comment = Absolutely ZERO respect for an alter Christus.
“Truly I tell you, whatsoever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.”
Spiritual poverty is a much greater threat to one’s Eternal life than experiencing physical poverty in our earthy life.
Matthew 10:28, Douay-Rheims Catholic Bible, “And fear ye not them that kill the body, and are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him that can destroy both soul and body in hell.”
“Presiding over the Diocese of Stockton, one of the poorest areas of the country, Catholic Bishop Stephen Blaire sees the human costs of poverty every day. Long lines at food banks. Homeless folks on the streets. Recently, as he does before Christmas every year, Blaire blessed thousands of food baskets to be given to needy local families.”
FROM DEC. 25 ARTICLE IN S.F. CHRONICLE…hmm…and people wonder why he’s talking about helping the poor…
First of all, “Max,” assisting the poor and opposing the murderous welfare state regime of President Obama are not mutually inconsistent. All Catholics are called to help the poor, but this does not check our morality. Obama sprinkles perfume on manure by talking about “fairness” and “helping the poor” while doling out public dollars to stuff the pockets of abortionists. Bishop Blaire might well have wonderful feelings of wanting to assist the poor and he should do so. He (and other bishops) must not take that Catholic-Christian duty to mean, however, that he can now lecture the Nation on fundamental economic principles, on which many people disagree. He is also obligated to try to lead all those within his charge to heaven (a duty which, it seems, most bishops are acutely embarrassed to publicly admit, much less perform). Blessing some bread, but ignoring the Vicar of Christ, does nothing to fulfill his duties, and in fact, can give scandal (similar to the impassioned speeches of at least one priest regarding the promotion of condoms — based on the fact that homosexuals are made that way and that they have sex — and that, because they represent one-half of the population, that women must be permitted to be priests). This is a key reason that clergy and religious are to be apart from economic and political life, and thereby be more devoted to their central “calling”. Nope, throwing around some scriptural references here and there about helping the poor does nothing to support the arrogance of U.S. bishops who misuse (and misunderstand) their religious title and office. And vigorously opposing the evils of the Obama Administration, notwithstanding that it might do some good for the poor, is a duty of all Catholics, even as they also strive to help others.
max, maybe Bishop Blair should give all of those poor people radios. The California welfare state has launched a massive advertisement campaign to sign people up for the food stamp program.
They should send out an action alert warning of “Faithful Citizenship”.
LOL that a good one, if not better yet…rewrite it and improve it.
John Feeney – Where did you get the idea that St. Thomas Aquinas says “that forcibly taking money from one person to give to another person is theft”?
I can’t imagine what mangled quote or mis-remembered reference you were thinking of, but St. Thomas could not more clearly contradict your misrepresentation than in Article VIII of Chapter 64 of the Summa where he says:
“If rulers exact from their subjects what is due in justice for the maintenance of the common weal, that is not robbery, even though force be used”.
Well Brian you and Aquinas are wrong, I would love for the big government types like you to take anything from me by force…. Oh how I hope for such a confrontation…
Even in Canisius-pronounced wrongness, I’m pleased to be in the very Catholic company of St. Thomas.
Of course you are Brian you find justice in the place the communists do by force of the State.
BTW Peter I highly doubt you are in Aquinas’s company when it comes to his views on sexual morality ,, highly doubt that…like all liberals you pick and choose….
Canisius, if by “Peter”, you mean me, you are incorrect in your assumptions. My views on sexual morality are completely orthodox. You simply value your politics too highly.
No Brian I value whats left of my freedom that is being swallowed by an ever growing government…
What is due in “JUSTICE”, is NOT government waste, printing more money to pay government bills, obscene government debt that can not be reasonably paid back while continuing to spend; supporting people who can support themselves and buying them cell phones, telling those on welfare that they do not need to look for jobs, etc.
The government can STEAL from the people as well.
The US Government is a mess, as well as the State of CA.
It is destructive to carelessly describe the normal taxation powers of government – which in its history the Church has always supported – as theft. To do so is to employ the rhetoric of libertarianism and elevate their myth of the superman against the patient message of the Church.
Normal taxation of government is needed to obey the US Constitution as written.
Government waste and living beyond their means is sinful.
Individuals, families, neighborhoods, then LOCAL governments, then the STATE are responsible for helping the poor in subsidiarity.
The Bishops who run to the Federal Government all the time have it backwards and violate the CCC. They constantly skip local and state governments.
Brian what do you call the never ending spending of a federal government that has unfunded liabilities of over $100 Trillion dollars yet you think we are not taxed enough….No what needs to happen is the massive and radical reduction of government. I pray that one day we are at place where government bureaucrats have to answer to the taxpayer not the other way around
I never wrote that we “are not taxed enough”. I asserted only the obvious – that taxation is not theft. With that I stand with St. Thomas who you pronounced “wrong”. Are you going to stand by that?
Brian S I am disgusted with your faulty interpretation of St. Thomas. Plus how dare you accuse someone else of pronouncing something against a saint. You are bearing false witness here too. Can you debate without those false accusations? It is slandering the intentions of someone who disagrees with you!
Yes you and Aquinas are wrong…taxation is theft…I stand by my comment… if Aquinas saw the welfare state he would change his mind
Canisius Aquinas lived in different times. So you are not against this great saint and don’t ever admit something that can not be because this great saint is not here to answer for today’s times in regards to these ordeals. Brian S just distracted us with those accusations on you but you both can debate this more intelligently. I know you both can. Sometimes people get heated because pride sets in. Lets just do the will of God and look at the reality of how lazy people have become due to the current failing welfare system that we have today…
The people who voted for Obama were not voting on moral ground but for selfish reasons…many wanted someone that would benefit them at the cost of other people’s money through high taxation!
Bishop Blaire is completely wrong-headed about economics. The best remedy for poverty is a growing economy. The Obama administration has done nothing and will continue to do nothing to improve the economy. Dumping more borrowed money into the same ratholes is utterly counterproductive. The bishop should preach the gospel. Much poverty in the US is the result of moral failures, chiefly drug abuse and illegitimacy. As long as the societal trends are headed in the wrong direction federal subsidies of irresponsible behavior only create more of the same. The evidence is overwhelming; our moral decline began with the great society and continues unabated. Every initiative undertaken by the government has had the exact opposite effect.
According to the US Office of Personnel Management –
there are 4,443,000 (millions) Federal Employees (as of 2010).
This many people are not all needed to uphold the US Constitution as written.
Most of these people make better salaries, and have better health, retirement and other benefits (that we all have to pay for) than their private sector counterparts.
This many employees is also government waste of taxpayer dollars.
All federal employees make better salaries than their counterparts. But wait, how can federal workers have counterparts?
My Fellow Fallen Away Catholic writes,
“Catherine you have an amazing ability to string together words and phrases that are nonsequitors, yet you pretend to be saying something true, as for example when you wrote, for example, “You effectively work against helping the poor when you selectively choose to not see how you are offending God,” and also when you wrote, “When you selectively remove certain teachings of the Catholic Church, you cannot help to create a society that truly recognizes the poor.”
“This implies that only orthodox catholics are capable of recognizing the poor. Obviously untrue on its face. As is the notion that sinning in matters completely unrelated to the poor or to poverty somehow *magically* makes poverty worse.”
No M.F.F.A.C. that is not what that implies but I understand why you are still so dazed and confused. There is a big difference between desiring the blessings from God that flow from amazing sanctifying grace vs. desiring amazing abilities. Example: Al Capone recognized and fed the poor. A Nation that turns it back on God will not flourish in God’s blessings. So the poor are affected by sin. When a nation shows such pervasive moral decay, not only the poor suffer from the loss of blessings, the entire nation will suffer.
You see M.F.F.A.C. it is the father of lies who has the amazingly cunning ability to convince a person who has been committing habitual mortal sin for twenty two years to pretend that the following string of words are untrue non sequiturs too.
Catechism of the Catholic Church #1865 “Sin creates a proclivity to sin; it engenders vice by repetition of the same acts. This results in perverse inclinations which cloud conscience and corrupt the concrete judgment of good and evil. Thus sin tends to reproduce itself and reinforce itself, but it cannot destroy the moral sense at its root.” (cont.)
My Fellow Fallen Away Catholic
A few of the many reasons for the loss of God’s Blessings which will affect the poor
We have lost sight of the meaning of these words:
America! America! God mend thy ev’ry flaw. Confirm thy soul in self-control, Thy liberty in law. America! America! May God thy gold refine, Till all success be nobleness And ev’ry gain divine.
M.F.F.A.C., There is no self control, there is nothing noble, there is nothing refined or divine about the following statistics:
#1. January 23, 2012 (LifeSiteNews.com) – A new analysis from the National Right to Life Committee’s (NCLC) education department estimates that since the infamous Roe v. Wade Supreme Court decision in 1973, over 54.5 million American babies have died through abortion.
The greatest destroyer of peace is abortion because if a mother can kill her own child, what is left, for me to kill you and you to kill me? There is nothing between….Blessed Mother Teresa
#2. There is nothing noble, refined or divine about mocking God’s Natural Law or having so little self-control that you are tempted to redefine God’s Plan of Creation. You are not asking God to mend flaws you are telling God that you think you are smarter than Him. This is not the way to get God to bless our nation it is the way to have God punish our nation. God did not mend Sodom and Gomorrah. He destroyed it. (Also, There is no such thing as a Rainbow bible version that claims it was a lack of hospitality that .” That’s another deceptive lure of the father of lies.
#3. A person can peel 100 soup kitchen onions in the morning and with full understanding consent to deliberately commit just “1” big serious mortal sin that afternoon and if you are called to face God that very same night, (without having repented in confession) to give an accounting you be won’t be crying over the onions. Now the father of lies does not want you to believe that either. The devil wants us to commit that mortal sin. The father of lies will always use that amazing cunning ability to convince a sinner’s conscience by saying, Ignore that. Don’t listen to that, your liberated now. C’mon have some more fun you deserve it. Go ahead make my day. (cont.)
My Fellow Fallen Away Catholic,
“The greatest disease in the West today is not TB or leprosy; it is being unwanted, unloved, and uncared for. We can cure physical diseases with medicine, but the only cure for loneliness, despair, and hopelessness is love. There are many in the world who are dying for a piece of bread but there are many more dying for a little love. The poverty in the West is a different kind of poverty — it is not only a poverty of loneliness but also of spirituality. There’s a hunger for love, as there is a hunger for God.” – Blessed Mother Theresa
Catherine, we finally agree! But let’s not forget those that are hungry and without shelter or jobs. Blessed New Year.
Catherine has not forgotten. Nor have many others here….
How do you know that? Hmmmmm.
Because those of us who strive to be like minded in Christ know!
Don’t worry about such things, Anonymous; it’s that some people actually have memories of everything, while many do not.
What is unfortunate for the poor is that some are so obsessed with homosexuality that they find within it the cause of poverty…while ignoring true causes (and cures) of poverty.
Obsessed with homosexuality? Wow! How stupid that analogy is. It is not obsession that you see, it is the effects and reactionary to that scandal that you mention, the effects of the gay agenda imposing itself on moral people. Homosexual (gay lifestyles) are scandalizing the faithful today….it is a serious sin, one that can not be ignored no longer, it is taking away the rights of all decent people. Being poor is not a sin but homosexual activism and lifestyles are!
YFC why are you so obsessed with it that you have to even mention it here? Why are you so obsessed with it that you live it too and want to see it expanded…see it as a right to commit sodomy, when sodomy is a serious sin! You brought it up, so I guess you have to face the what you call obsession REACTION to your scandalous comments! The real obsession that is actually in reality is that this society gives special privileges to those with that disorder, that agenda has imposed it’s views on many American’s whether they like it or not. So I pray that your comments never suppress the American people’s ability to react quickly and defend what they hold to be for the common good of all mankind with common decency and fear of the Lord in their hearts! God first….always! Defending common decency, chastity and morals! No one is to be suppressed, intimated when it comes to standing up for moral values! The poor, the middle class and the wealthy need moral values to endure what this life brings….no homosexual or any sinful sexual choice can take that away from us!
True cause of poverty; LIBERALISM
Douay-Rheims Catholic Bible
7 And there was a great battle in heaven, Michael and his angels fought with the dragon, and the dragon fought and his angels: 8 And they prevailed not, neither was their place found any more in heaven. 9 And that great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, who seduceth the whole world; and he was cast unto the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.
It’s Blessed Mother “Teresa”, not “Theresa”.
Abeca, enough. Disagreeing with me doesn’t justify any of your accusations.
John Feeney stated that St. Thomas Aquanis claimed that taxation was theft. I cited Summa question 64 where St. Thomas states the opposite (“If rulers exact from their subjects what is due in justice for the maintenance of the common weal, that is not robbery, even though force be used”.)
In response Canius declares Thomas “wrong”, while you accuse me of “faulty interpretation”, false witness and slander.
How is posting what Thomas actually wrote any of these things? You are the one slandering here. Stop it.
No Brian S you accused some here of being against St. Thomas. I don’t see it that way. Read my comment to Caninsius on that thread.
Brian S., just “exactions” are not the same as today’s taxation. You’re again mixing theory and reality, and doing so for unknown reasons.
Unknown, really? I’ve stated it many times.
I desire that Catholics, especially those orthodox in life and liturgical issues, recognize and embrace the social doctrine of the Church. It depresses me to see Catholics simultaneously priding themselves on obedience while rejecting and mocking it in this area.
Of course, none of us can separate ourselves entirely from our political sympathies, but embracing the anti-catholic policies of the libertarians and the Club for Growth while misrepresenting our Popes and Saints and the clearest teachings of the Church is part of what makes the political message of Catholics so irrelevent now.
Essentially, you cede the ground of social justice to the democratic party, and those Catholics who are called to pursue it are often not strong enough to resist the temptations of their anti-catholic allies – in the same way that you find it difficult to withstand yours.
But I comment here because here I expect to find support and respect for the clear directives and teachings of popes. Sadly, that is often not the case. I urge you to read Centimus Annus and consider if those words could have been written by a “liberal”, an “Alinskyite”, or one uninterested in stopping abortion, same sex marriage or the other sins of today.
Maybe – just maybe – they were written by a man providentially placed to understand the problems of modern society and politics extremely well.
“priding themselves on obedience while rejecting and mocking it in this area”: You’re dreaming or having a nightmare, Brian S.
Nightmare accurately describes it, Skai. You mock the Church.
When are Bishops ever going to worry about true catechisis and holiness?
Bishops in their luxurious offices lecture people on Charity. They need to practice true Christian Charity AKA MO-T instead of confusing the welfare state which is designed to undermine the family as an economic unit, and transfer that responsibility to the state and ultimately the Church as an image of Christian Charity, reducing the church into a social services organization that supplements city government efforts.
These Bishops need to preach on Christian Charity which begins first and foremost from a radical personal conversion, and thus one giving oneself in union with the cross, that is totally different and actually completely opposed to socialist ‘charity’ which seeks to create an utopian society based on independent from God and his Church.
As State that does not recognize the Catholic Church as the only true religion Church with which Christ’s reign in this world is established cannot be a legitimate authority to lecture us on Charity.
Brilliant!!! The family is not an economic unit, as the socialists always try to force people into believing and acting. The family is not a unit at all; rather it is comprised of individual souls. The Church is a family, comprised of individual souls, and is not a unit to be exploited by business or government. Those who do not understand this, should read the works of Blessed John Paul II to find out more about what the Church has always taught in this respect.
2207 The family is the original cell of social life. It is the natural society in which husband and wife are called to give themselves in love and in the gift of life. Authority, stability, and a life of relationships within the family constitute the foundations for freedom, security, and fraternity within society. The family is the community in which, from childhood, one can learn moral values, begin to honor God, and make good use of freedom. Family life is an initiation into life in society. (1880, 372, 1603)
Some say “cell”, others say “unit”. It is not a atomistic collection in either case.
“All of us, and in particular the lay faithful, bear a most heavy responsibility for the economic, political and social conditions in our society. The questions of justice which we confront are complex and do not admit of easy response. It is therefore essential that we receive instruction in the Church’s social doctrine. Pope Benedict XVI reminds us that the Church’s history, from her beginnings, is rich with lessons in social justice. He cautions against “misguided compromises or false utopias.” and underlines the “realism and moderation” of the Church’s social teaching.” Cardinal Raymond Burke
Flowery way of saying simply, “Know right from wrong; do right, not wrong”.
Simpler yet: “The beginning of wisdom is the fear of God”. “Be wise as serpents, and peaceful as doves”.
Oh, I forgot, today’s typical reader is language challenged and has to rely on the extremely verbose and legalistic type rhetoric of clericdom.