The following comes from a Sept. 20 story in the Santa Rosa Press Democrat.
Santa Rosa Catholic Bishop Robert Vasa said Friday that Pope Francis has challenged him and other church leaders to become more “pastoral” in their work, but is not asking them to abandon the Church’s moral teachings about the sins of homosexuality, abortion and birth control.
Vasa’s comments came one day after the pope rocked the Catholic world with published statements that the church “cannot insist only on issues related to abortion, gay marriage and the use of contraceptive methods.” While the church’s opposition to these things is clear, a more pastoral approach to ministry is needed, the pope said.
Many observers interpreted the the comments as a softening of the church’s stand on the touchstone moral issues. The bishop took a different view.
Vasa, who adheres to a strict, or traditional, interpretation of church doctrine, said the pope was merely saying that “when we deal with those with whom we morally disagree that we do that in a spirit of conciliation and compassion and receptiveness.”
He acknowledged the pope’s emphasis presents him with a personal challenge. As a bishop, Vasa said he is “geared more toward a canonical mindset and I recognize the need for administrative leadership in church. I also recognize that pastoral leadership, while wonderful, requires someone stepping in and taking up the administrative role.”
….Asked if he would welcome to St. Eugene’s Cathedral a Catholic woman who had an abortion or is contemplating having one, or a gay person or someone who is practicing birth control, Vasa said he would if they were open to changing their ways.
“Like the pope says, I don’t necessarily judge them, but they have to somehow judge themselves and recognize that they are living and acting in a way which is not consistent with what the church teaches,” he said.
“And they have an obligation at least to take up the current literature and really study the issue and not simply as a knee-jerk reaction give in to the pressure of the culture.”
….During an interview at the Santa Rosa Diocese chancery, Vasa talked at length about the pope’s extensive interview.
Asked if he agreed with the pope’s view that some in the Catholic Church are “obsessed” with dogmatic and moral teachings, Vasa said he has not witnessed that obsession.
“I certainly do know that there are individuals, and I certainly would probably be among them, who firmly believe that these are core cultural issues about which we must be vocal,” he said. “But I’m not obsessed about them. A vast majority of the things that I write do not include abortion as a topic or contraception or divorce and remarriage.”
“Is there a need for teaching about those things? Absolutely. Are there some folks who overstep the boundary and say, ‘OK we’re preaching about this every single Sunday?’ Well, there may be. But there’s a vast majority of people who never talk about it.”
Vasa said that if “everyone talked about it a little, there would be fewer who feel the need to talk about it more,” adding that abortion is a social justice issue.
“What the Holy Father is calling us to do is to promote the Gospel message, not starting from, ‘Oh, you’re bad and going to hell,” Vasa said. “But rather from a positive presentation of God’s goodness, of God’s love, of God’s mercy and God’s call to everyone of us to live a life more in conformity with what God wants us to do.”
To read entire story, click here.
Abortion is a “social justice issue”…aaahh,…spoken like a true modernist good bishop…you seem to have lost your faith somewhere along the line…sadly, you are another wayward cleric and bishop no less, who should never have been ordained! You serve have lost your moral and spiritual equilibrium, and have embraced modernist…a heresy, CONDEMNED!…remember, a toehold becomes a foothold and foothold becomes a stronghold…seems you’ve already taken the plunge, down that “oh so slippery slope” senor…What does God want us to do?…you sir have studied the gospels…know better than us all what they teach and proclaim…they are clear, their is no ambiguity…the Church’s teaching is explicitly clear on matters of faith and morals…this encompasses abortion, divorce and homosexuality senor…are your powers of discernment really this compromised good bishop?
The is a Bishop that the Church has ordained to the office and a faithful one. You are accusing him of ‘having lost the faith’. Do you know his heart like Our Lord knows it?
Did you read the article?
It is amazing how quickly and wrongly you have judged Bishop Robert Vasa. Abortion is a “social justice issue”. If you do not have the right to life then you have no rights and there is no social Justice. The good Bishop does not question the churches teachings but supports them.
May God Bless you and Bishop Robert Vasa.
No wonder many people hate what is right, including many within the Catholic Church. Many of our own shepherds are admittedly sinking in the quicksand of broadmindedness.
“Broadmindedness, when it means indifference to right and wrong, eventually ends in a hatred of what is right.” …The Venerable Servant of God, Fulton J. Sheen
“Many a modern preacher is far less concerned with preaching Christ and Him crucified than he is with his popularity with his congregation. A want of intellectual backbone makes him straddle the ox of truth and the ass of nonsense” The Venerable Servant of God …Fulton J. Sheen
“I do not fear at all what men can do to me for speaking the truth. I only fear what God would do if I were to lie.”- Saint Don Bosco
From The Wall Street Journal, March 31, 2012:
by James Taranto
WHEN THE ARCHBISHOP (DOLAN ) MET THE PRESIDENT
by James Taranto
What about the argument that vast numbers of Catholics ignore the church’s teachings about sexuality? Doesn’t the church have a problem conveying its moral principles to its own flock? “Do we ever!” the archbishop replies with a hearty laugh. “I’m not afraid to admit that we have an internal catechetical challenge—a towering one—in convincing our own people of the moral beauty and coherence of what we teach. That’s a biggie.”
For this he faults the church leadership. “We have gotten gun-shy . . . in speaking with any amount of cogency on chastity and sexual morality.” He dates this diffidence to “the mid- and late ’60s, when the whole world seemed to be caving in, and where Catholics in general got the impression that what the Second Vatican Council taught, first and foremost, is that we should be chums with the world, and that the best thing the church can do is become more and more like everybody else.”
cont…..
“The “flash point,” the archbishop says, was “Humanae Vitae,” Pope Paul VI’s 1968 encyclical reasserting the church’s teachings on sex, marriage and reproduction, including its opposition to artificial contraception. It “brought such a tsunami of dissent, departure, disapproval of the church, that I think most of us—and I’m using the first-person plural intentionally, including myself—kind of subconsciously said, ‘Whoa. We’d better never talk about that, because it’s just too hot to handle.’ We forfeited the chance to be a coherent moral voice when it comes to one of the more burning issues of the day.”
Without my having raised the subject, he adds that the church’s sex-abuse scandal “intensified our laryngitis over speaking about issues of chastity and sexual morality, because we almost thought, ‘I’ll blush if I do. . . . After what some priests and some bishops, albeit a tiny minority, have done, how will I have any credibility in speaking on that?'”
Yet the archbishop says he sees a hunger, especially among young adults, for a more authoritative church voice on sexuality. “They will be quick to say, ‘By the way, we want you to know that we might not be able to obey it. . . . But we want to hear it. And in justice, you as our pastors need to tell us, and you need to challenge us.'”
God bless you, Catherine! You have hit the nail on the head. The Achilles Heel of the church’s failure to teach ordinary Christian morality lies in her fear of touching on Humanae Vitae, which they all regard as radioactive! Fifty years in the pews and not a peep about premarital sex, contraceptives, shacking up, divorce, etc…. have taken their toll. The results are plain: A recent survey among church-attending Catholics indicate unacceptably high numbers of such individuals approving not only same sex marriage, but have no qualms about contraception and a “woman’s right to choose”. We have come a long way, baby!
God bless you Catherine, I agree with Anton on your comments! and I end with this quote from Fulton Sheen:
“Tolerance is an attitude of reasoned patience toward evil … a forbearance that restrains us from showing anger or inflicting punishment. Tolerance applies only to persons … never to truth. Tolerance applies to the erring, intolerance to the error … Architects are as intolerant about sand as foundations for skyscrapers as doctors are intolerant about germs in the laboratory. Tolerance does not apply to truth or principles. About these things we must be intolerant, and for this kind of intolerance, so much needed to rouse us from sentimental gush, I make a plea. Intolerance of this kind is the foundation of all stability.”
“The Achilles Heel of the church’s failure to teach ordinary Christian morality lies in her fear of touching on Humanae Vitae, which they all regard as radioactive! ”
Anton L. Seidl, Thank you for that excellent quote and may God bless you Anton for your truthful post. Your diagnosis of “Achilles Heel” and “Radioactive” is exactly right. You have helped others to pinpoint the reason for the many years of silence regarding many issues. I think that many readers will reflect on your wise summation and continue to pray for our shepherds to become holy and courageous. Our lead shepherds must ask God for the grace and the fortitude to stop playing tiddlywinks with the truth. Our Lady of Akita chose a different word than “tiddlywinks”. Our Lady used the word “compromise” which shows her very motherly and tender affection towards her most favored sons. Still many choose to completely ignore her maternal warnings. Our lead shepherds know what the Church teaches. Some have openly rejected the teachings but many who do accept the teachings are very AFRAID to teach the full truth without compromise. The spiritually unhealthy and consuming fear of the loss of respect of men has become much more important than the healthy fear of offending God through compromise. Compromises water down the truth and the true faith often becomes unrecognizable and unclear. It is as if our modern day shepherds have completely forgotten Christ crucified and the great cost that the apostles and the martyrs of the Church paid for boldly proclaiming the fullness of truth. They did this through the teaching examples of their own individual lives.
cont….
No wonder many churches prefer to compromise and remove large crucifixes. Crucifixes are just too much of a realistic reminder that Jesus sacrificed and suffered and hung on a cross for three hours to redeem all sinners. No one wants to really recognize the cross any more or see the tremendous value in the acceptance of their own cross. Standing behind a pulpit may indeed be challenging but it is not an exemption from apostolic succession. There is so much more to the rich treasury of our Catholic faith.
Our lead shepherds need the sobering and loving reminder that even St. Peter fled Rome when he became greatly consumed with the fear of the rejection and retribution of men. They need to remember that St. Peter’s good conscience thankfully got the better of him. St. Peter prayed and he was given the supernatural grace to gather up all of his holy senses and after he briefly fled he too returned to Rome to not only embrace the cross but to honor the cross by choosing to be hung upside down. St. Peter through prayerful recognition of his own failings and weaknesses DID summon up the holy courage and the holy resolve to defend and uphold all that Jesus Christ had taught.
Thank you again Anton!
Joto; sometimes all it takes is for someone to speak (or blog) to confirm their lack of comprehension of the facts. Fools rush in and you are definitely a fool. You clearly know nothing of the fight against abortion or you would know that even the priests for life, (all of whom are great supporters of Bishop Vasa) use the term social justice re: abortion because it turn the phrase right back on those who think social justice is all that matters. Justice would allow every baby to born! Think about it! Even the unchurched should be able to get that one.
Obviously just another rambling keyboard, joto; call Bishop Vasa and speak with him. You will find that you have been wrong on all counts.
Stephen – you are clueless about Vasa. He is about as traditional and solid as they come. You misinterpret what he said.
pardon my typos…serve is sir, and modernist is modernism..my bad
“But there’s a vast majority of people who never talk about it.”
Bp. Vasa appears to be more in touch with the Church in northern California than is His Holiness. I, for one, cannot recall having heard the words “abortion” or “gay” or “contraception” or any synonyms therefor in my parish or any of those around it. Ever. And I have been a parishoner here for 47 years.
Pope Francis needs to learn that when he speaks – he is quoted around the world.
When he tries to make clarifications the next day, it is too late.
In the USA – contraception is never mentioned in the Church,
abortion only in relation to the HHS mandate, and sodomy only in relation to homosexual marriage laws – and then only in a few Diocese.
People are not and have not been taught the Faith accurately for more than 40 years.
Hell and Mortal Sin are never mentioned either.
The Pope makes an assumption that they have been taught completely and accurately by most USA Bishops and Priests – NOT so in the USA.
Based upon voting patterns, many Catholics have not been taught right from wrong, virtue from sin.
Catholics have NOT been taught there are CONSEQUENCES to their own ACTIONS.
God has mercy – yes.
God also is all just. The Church must teach about God’s justice as well as His mercy.
In St. Faustina’s Diary of Devine Mercy in My Soul – Jesus said: “….For them, the last hope of salvation is to flee to my mercy.” pg 442, #1228.
MEG,
If you attended a Traditional Catholic Parish, indulted or not, you would hear plenty about those SINS!
May God have mercy on an amoral America!
Viva Cristo Rey!
God bless, yours in Their Hearts,
Kenneth M. Fisher
Great Point – The Pope has proposed a solution to a problem we don’t have – thst is to say our priests and bishops spending all their time and energy on the issues of abortion, contraception and homosexuality…..where has he been living? ABP Gomez doesnt ever acknoweldge any issue but immgration ….sam e with Mahony etc.
“Like the pope says, I don’t necessarily judge them, but they have to somehow judge themselves and recognize that they are living and acting in a way which is not consistent with what the church teaches,” Vasa said.
The Church of England was started by King Henry VIII because he did not want to abide by Church teaching. He chose to be a “Protestant” and broke away from the Church to start a denomination. Today we have hordes of individuals within the Church, clergy and laity alike, (including politicians) who also choose to be Protestants no differently than King Henry VII did. The difference is that these modern day Protestants proclaim that they are Catholics in good standing. These people refuse to leave the Church but rather are enemies of the Church fighting her from within.
Should it be any wonder that due to the fact that excommunication is a rarity these days that the dissenters now appear to be the majority within the Church?
Dissenter- The refusal to conform to the authority or doctrine of an established church
It does not matter how many they are within the Church. There is absolutely no way they can win a victory over the Holy Ghost. Have faith. Those that Seek the Lord find him within the same Church.
So much damage is being done in the Church by clergy that teach contrary to Church teachings. The majority of Catholics now believe that contraception, abortion, shacking up. and so-called “gay marriage” is ok and I know for a fact that the reason is because all of the attention on these issues have come from the other side. Millions of Catholic youth have grown up being influenced by our culture right at the time we decided that we wouldn’t talk about sin anymore. Our new Holy Father makes me nervous because, and I might be wrong about this, but to me he seems to be saying that we should soften our approach to these issues. He seems to be giving ammunition to those in the Church that want to talk about immigration and love rather than moral issues. The reason these people refuse to leave is that they know they can do more damage from within than without.
July 13th, 1917, Fatima, Portugal. Words of Our Lady to 3 children of Fatima: “More souls go to Hell because of sins of the flesh than for any other reason.” Is that worth listening to?
It sure is and often
If the Holy Father and Bishop Vasa are going to refrain from “judging” anyone, maybe we should consider bringing in a ringer — such as Judge Judy?
She seems very sensible indeed.
….Asked if he would welcome to St. Eugene’s Cathedral a Catholic woman who had an abortion or is contemplating having one, or a gay person or someone who is practicing birth control, Vasa said he would if they were open to changing their ways.
Bishop Vasa may not know it, although he probably does, that he is doing this already especially when it comes to people practicing birth control. If no one shows people out, then they are being welcomed in.
and, to continue, if they are showing up then almost by definition they are open to changing their ways or why else would they show up?
Caroline,
Bishop Vasa absolutely does teach and preach Humanae Vitae!
May God have mercy on an amoral America!
Viva Cristo Rey!
God bless, yours in Their Hearts,
Kenneth M. Fisher
Vasa said that if “everyone talked about it a little, there would be fewer who feel the need to talk about it more,” adding that abortion is a social justice issue.
Well, of course abortion is a social justice issue — just like murder, torture, genocide, ethnic cleansing and other crimes against life.
The Old and New Testaments call us to be a people of justice — and of course this mean’s GOD’S justice, not merely the laws of the land in which we happen to find ourselves.
Our Catholic social teaching is all based on the Tradition of the Church, Sacred Scripture, Papal Encyclicals, and other holy sources of wisdom that should guide each Catholic person — not merely going along with the flow. If we did THAT, we’d approve of all kinds of evils, simply because “everyone’s doing it.”
‘Judging is a word not being used correctly by Bishop Vasa or the Holy Roman Pontiff.
The Danger that so horrify’s the flock of Pope Francis is the failure of the Church to transmitt the horror of sins and how offensive they are to God. this knowledge can only be found within the Catholic Faith. There is no need for alarm. The Church will remain for our Lord Guarantees it. The death of sensitivity to sin in the Novus Ordo world is what is horrifying most of us.
You got to admit that Holy Father Francis and Bishop Vasa have a point. There is no need of trying to explain morality to a person whose heart is not converted. Just teach them to an encounter and conversion and once they receive that grace, then you can teach them about morality and how it flows from Christ.
Remember one of the gifts of the Holy Ghost is understanding. Before the gifts comes what? Baptism. Before baptism comes faith and a desire to ‘enter’ the Church.
Those deep wells of the Mystical life of the Church that saints participate in during their life here and the ones we faithful gets a glimpse of cannot be seen without first believing, receiving the sacraments and living in grace, for unlike Science or Mathematics or any other academic endeavor, understanding only comes after believe.
Good grief! Bishop Vasa is a Catholic hero whom I have been following for years. For an education, see “fjdalessio (dot) wordpress (dot) com/category/by-bishop-vasa”.
You can judge a Bishop by his detractors, and Bishop Vasa has many LIBERAL DETRACTORS!
Now it seems that he even has detractors amongst many who would call themselves traditional!
Pray for Bishop Vasa, I know he appreciates all prayers.
May God have mercy on an amoral America!
Viva Cristo Rey!
God bless, yours in Their Hearts,
Kenneth M. Fisher
Ken, The Bishop of Rome has many detractors right here on these pages. What does that say about him?
It always amazes me that people that have never spent 5 minutes speaking with Bp Vasa or followed his writings are so quick to pick apart the man. Only those who have followed him and know him understand the truth. the rest of you should go to confession for the assault on a holy man’s character. We’ve been here before on this blog…I’m beginning to think the knees jerk the keyboards with some of the participants on here. You will not find a more orthodox, genuinely holy man.
And for the uninformed: abortion is a social justice issue. It is the first of all injustices to not be allowed to be born. Try to think of a more important one! when speaking to the secular media (and the Press Democrat is several steps below even that!) it is good to use the language that even they might understand, unfortunately some here don’t even get it.
And you wonder why the S.S.P.X. is very timid at returning to Rome!
Janek ~ Both Popes bent over backward to work with the SSPX. In later years my former Archbishop, Cardinal Lavada made a great effort. They remain arrogant, disrespectful, anti-Semitic and just plain wrong. They had their chance and missed it. Pope Francis likely won’t squander good resources after bad trying to woo them. They will go their way as the American Catholic Church, the Roman Catholic Womanpriests and others have done and we, the church founded by Jesus Christ will go ours. To bad.
The Society of Saint Pius X is indeed arrogant, refusing to admit the authority of an Ecumenical Council of the Catholic Church.
They want to pick and choose — for example, their hatred for the Jews is something they just will not discard. (Imagine them meeting the Blessed Mother in heaven and finally realizing she is a Jewish mother.)
They call themselves traditional — but disobeying the Vicar of Christ is not a Tradition in the Catholic Church that is wholesome.
As Greg Smith points out so accurately, they have chosen schism, just like other groups such as Roman Catholic Womenpriests, the so-called American Catholic Church, and that rather eccentric fellow in the Midwest who calls himself “Pope Michael.”
I was baptized, raised, and confirmed in the Catholic Church, and I have no intention of letting some zany group lead me astray.
Suzanne: The SSPX is not in schism. They are also not arrogant, but rather insistent that certain inconsistencies that are very obvious to on who actually listens to what the Bishops, Cardinals, and the Popes disagree on be addressed. And they need to be.
As for the ‘authority’ of an Ecumenical Council, that is the entire point, Suzanne. An ecumenical council that from the outset made it very clear that they did NOT intend to alter and or redefine dogmas, cannot be held in the same vein as say, Trent.
I was also born and raised Catholic and find the clarity of the SSPX refreshing. If only to identify the big, whopping pink Elephant in the middle of the Vatican…. oops…. I mean in the middle of the Clown Mass. But then they’re in full communion. So that’s okee dokeee!
Greg Smith,
You don’t know what you are writing about. The main dividing point with the SSPX and many in the Vatican is the insane, yes insane, ecumenism which the SSPX cannot and should not accept.
You try to attach that anti-Semitic brand on all of the SSPX Bishops, when even what the Bishop you are referring to said was not really anti-Semitic. He merely questioned as do many the numbers of those killed in the Gas Chambers. Oh but it is a crime even to question those numbers amongst you blind liberals.
May God have mercy on an amoral America!
Viva Cristo Rey!
God bless, yours in Their Hearts,
Kenneth M. Fisher
Ken – I’m surprised at you. The SSPX doesn’t have a disagreement with just “many in the Vatican,” rather, it is in conflict with the Church itself. As for the Jews, our doctrine, which has been emphasized by the last 3 popes holds that 1) the Jewish people of today are the same Jewish people of the Old Testament AND 2) their unbroken covenant with God continues. The SSPX and guys like Michael Voorhees reject this. Also, I do hope and expect that you don’t buy Williamson’s Holocaust denial.
Greg Smith: Are you honestly stating that it is only the last 3 popes that have a handle on what Catholic doctrine regarding the Jews is? I mean, really.
As for their covenant it was fulfilled in Jesus Christ, not broken. That is why St. Peter on the first Pentecost called those Jews present to convert and be baptized. If it was no big deal – regardless of the mismash, political reinterpretation so we can all get along promoted by modernist freethinking clergy – then why would the apostles, saints, and popes and peoples of Christ have struggled for so long to convert the Jews out of love?
Think, man, think!
Ken Fisher.
Thanks for being a ‘thinking’ man. I, for one, appreciate your giving the benefit of the doubt to the unrepresented and seeking SSPXers. Something many on the forum will do for unrepentant homosexuals, hard line Muslims, Atheists, but absolutely not for fellow Catholics who are rightly questioning the mega-shift in the Catholic Church that nobody wants to ask about for fear of looking like a schismatic.
Pax
Thank goodness the SSPX didn’t sign an agreement with the Vatican, Greg, else wise the very legitimate questions that surround the vagaries of Vatican II would be swept under the carpet. Think Wizard of Oz – don’t look at the man behind the curtain.
Or do you prefer to wonder at the heterodox ‘teachings’ coming down from above? Christ instituted the Church and guaranteed that the Gates of Hell shall not prevail against Her. He did not say, however, that He would not allow an unfaithful Faithful the leadership (dare I say ambiguous, confusing, forever needing to be explained backpedal lack of leadership) that they deserve for their hardness of heart in doing what Our Lord has asked.
Or do you consider yourself more worthy than the Israelites of old who were duly punished with corrupt leadership? Or those poor folks led into Arianism by — oh, my goodness gracious — an Arian Pope?!
I, for one, am grateful for the dialogue raised by the SSPX and also for the preservation of the Traditional Mass (and catechism) that wouldn’t be around today if left to modernist devices.
Matthew 16:19; Matthew 18:18
Ann – The SSPX and you believe there are “the very legitimate questions that surround the vagaries of Vatican II.” So do the sedvacanists like Jerry Matatics and Michael Bowden (“Pope Michael I”). The American Catholic Church, Women’s Ordination Conference and Call to Action also oppose some teachings of the Church. Other than your own opinion that the SSPX’s “questions” are legitiamite and those of the aformentioned people are wrong, how is the disobedience to the Holy Father justified by one and not the other?
Greg: I appreciate your zealous defense of the Pope and the Church. I feel much the same, in all charity, for the good of souls. Yours, mine, the Pope’s and everyone’s – most especially those of my family.
That said, I’m going to ask you again. Do you really believe that only the last 3 Popes have a handle on Catholic Doctrine with regard to how we approach Jews and other non-Catholics? Do you believe that the Saints and Martyrs were mistaken or overzealous in their sacrifice to preach, teach, and die for the One True Faith?
I would imagine you don’t, especially not that last one. I would also imagine, perhaps incorrectly, that you don’t know that the modern theology that ran rough shod at Vatican II and the ambiguous aspects I’ve alluded to were part of those modern innovations that were rejected by previous Popes – Pius X and Pius XII come immediately to mind.
The ‘New Mass’ incorporates what prior to Vatican II was practiced by disobedient, modernists priests who had been instructed to cease and desist. By previous Popes. No kidding.
Taking that into consideration and looking at the Catholic fallout all around, cleaving to Tradition is not the same as declaring the seat vacant, creating your own Pope, or going even further and attempting to ordain women priests. Read the history, Greg, not religious tracts. But the history.
The Second Vatican Council: the unwritten story by de Mattei is a great starting point. It’s a scholarly account, nothing more.
I’d also like to point out, Greg, something that was cut off from my last posting.
The Latin Mass was never abrogated. In fact, it was given eternal approval from Pope Pius V who, in the context of a Papal Bull, anathemized anyone in future who would attempt to change/alter it. Vatican II replaced it.
The new mass readings on Hell, Heresy, Sin, the Devil were replaced with teachings that were supposedly more in keeping with the ‘fullness’ of the Gospel. That is the love part without the sin and Hell reality parts. I could be wrong, but this could be part of why many folks today who consider themselves good Catholics are so put off or unconcerned with the consequences of sin, heresy, and Hell. They have never been taught about it – not in catechism class and not from the pulpit.
So, yes, I’m glad that the SSPX raised the legitimate question regarding the Mass of All Times. If they had not, we the people may have been fooled into believing that the old mass was forbidden. LIE…. or at the very least a big, fat omission intended to encourage the flock to just move along and not question.
But the real question is: why are questions doubting the teachings of the Church considered good and wholesome dialogue while legitimate questions about why the sudden shift happened in the first place are labeled divisive, not following the Holy Spirit, etc.
Are we to believe that ALL homosexual deviants who defiantly live the lifestyle that brings about a worse inclination to immerse themselves in that way of living is because Bishops, Priests and laypeople are not “conciliatory” or “compassionate” or “receptive” enough to, what, their “plight”? The “plight” of being afflicted with Same Sex Attraction? And what about the responsibility of those, the afflictees, who seem to be caught up in the MADNESS of the gay lifestyle? Don’t they have responsibilities too? To avoid near and remote occasions of sin? To pray and fast in order to overcome their “affliction?” I have often wondered, since the famous quotes attributed to Pope Francis were made public re abortion, contraception, homosexuality, etc., referred to herein, was the world just waiting for this to happen in order to POUNCE and start the lies and distortions again, really, in order to STICK IT to the Catholic Church again, causing confusion, doubt, and despair among weak-minded Catholics so hopelessly confused already by so much happening in this secularist-satiated, modernist society? For there really is a mysterious non-flesh and blood entity prowling out there who never sleeps, and exists solely for the perverse satisfaction he gets in helping to drag souls down to hell, and we know his name, Lucifer. Oh Holy Morning Star, Mary Immaculate, please pray for us that we not falter in what we must do at this time in history. GOD BLESS ALL, MARKRITE
Will any member of the clergy warn of the grave danger people put their souls in by their sins? I have never in my parish, a priest mention anything about contraception, abortion or homosexuality. So it is no wonder we live in an age of moral relativity, because few are ever told what they do is sinful. The post Vatican II Church has failed miserably in this regard. The bishop’s job, as Father John Zuhlsdorf (Father Z) has noted, is to keep their flock out of hell.
We can not judge who will ultimately go to Heaven, Purgatory or Hell because we do not know what happens in the last few moments of life of each individual (repentance?);
And more importantly because Jesus said HE will judge.
However we must judge right from wrong. We must NEVER TOLERATE SIN.
We must learn our Faith accurately and teach it to others. We must never ignore sin using the excuse of “not judging” sin.
“DO NOT JUDGE BY APPEARANCES, BUT JUDGE WITH RIGHT JUDGEMENT” – JESUS Jn 7:24.
The Church has been given much power from Jesus – Mt 16:19.
As long as the Church (Magisterium) has adopted the Code of Canon Law, and GIRM (General Instruction of the Roman Missal) for the Ordinary Form of the Mass, all Bishops and Priests and even the Pope must adhere to them.
The Magisterium can change Church adopted things IF they deem appropriate, the Pope can not change these all by himself.
Know your Faith – READ and Study –
1) Catholic BIBLE – especially the New Testament for the true words of Jesus;
These are from the Vatican web site.
2) “CATECHISM of the CATHOLIC CHURCH, Second Edition”
https://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_INDEX.HTM ;
3) Code of Canon Law
https://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/_INDEX.HTM ;
4) GIRM (General Instruction of the Roman Missal)
https://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/ccdds/documents/rc_con_ccdds_doc_20030317_ordinamento-messale_en.html .
Popes John Paul II, Benedict XVI, and Francis have all asked us to study the CCC. https://whatcatholicsreallybelieve.com/
Yet in the USA many Bishops, Priests, Nuns and Laity have ignored them.
No matter how much we may hang up our dissenters on tree limbs to watch them twisting in the wind, including our church’s leaders, there is only one person whose judgment counts at all, that of Our Lord on Judgment Day. He has already taught us all we need to know about how to be allowed to spend eternity with Him. It really doesn’t matter what any mortal human being here on earth does, says or writes in debating what to emphasize and what to ignore and excuse in ourselves or condemn in others; His Word is eternal, and we all know what it is and have only to follow it with devotion to the Lord. All the rest of this back and forth is just noise. Period.
The task is to follow Him, not to debate the finer points of which parts of His Word to choose to follow when we are “being good” nor to ignore those inconvenient teachings we’re not in the mood to follow. Let’s try to help each other with implementation of the Law, not spend all our time in judgment of everyone from commenters to Popes and everyone in between. Then let’s all try to figure out how to fulfill the great commission He charged us with of spreading the Word to all the nations of the world. This is actually a medium that could be used for that purpose with relative ease, as many non-committed Catholics read this e-publication; what say we learn how to use it well in serving Our Lord rather than sitting in judgment of one another and parsing the Word to suit our pleasure?
You are right, Maryanne. People can not teach others what they do not know accurately.
Everyone should read a Catholic Bible and the “Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition” to accurately spread the word without error.
Maryanne Leonard,
You wrote…”This is actually a medium that could be used for that purpose with relative ease, as many non-committed Catholics read this e-publication; what say we learn how to use it well in serving Our Lord rather than sitting in judgment of one another and parsing the Word to suit our pleasure?”
Maryanne Leonard,
Truth and the continuity of Catholic truths are what serve Our Lord and readers well. Did it suit your individual pleasure to promote canonization for a priest who is currently and openly undermining Catholic Church teaching? Many non-committted Catholics read your post that did so. If you are sincere about using this e-publication to serve Our Lord well then please retract your pre- canonization comment regarding a priest who is leading souls away from Our Lord by promoting same sex marriage. If you are sincere about helping readers of this e-publication then you should also be able to retract that pre-canonization comment with relative ease.
The issue of birth control has greatly damaged the Church, both institutionally and in the laity. The widespread use of artificial contraception (excluding abortion, of course) among Catholic couples is based on their reasoned judgment that the Pope is wrong on this one; indeed, internally the review of the issue among the Cardinals and the lay/medical commission that studied it prior to Paul VI’s decision all pointed in the direction of changing the traditional teaching. The fact that 80% of US Catholics use contraception is solid evidence that the laity have studied the issue, too, consulted their conscience, prayerfully reflected on the matter and reached their decision. The Church is paying a dear price for Humanae Vitae……empty pews, tuning out the Vatican, challenging the Church. After all, so goes the thinking, if the Churh is wrong about birth control, what else are they wrong about? It’s Pope Paul VI who brought this one on, and subsequent Popes have toed that line.
The Catholic Catechism continues to teach the primacy of conscience. Having “doubts” is how constructive change has always been made in civilization and in the Church. Remember, Our Lord was a radical in his age, one of history’s greatest “doubters”.
BTW, you can always tell what families at Mass adhere to the Church’s “no birth control” policy…..they are the ones that have 5 to 10 children jammed into the pew, a visible reminder to the congregation that Natural Family Planning doesn’t work.
So called “good cause”,
Have you not read how when He told them about eating and drinking His Body, and Blood, many who had followed him to that point departed from Him. Can’t you in your blind liberalism even see that this is exactly what happened with Pope Paul VI and Humanae Vitae? Do you want to end up where those who left Him then probably have ended up? Think and pray about it.
By the way, I was at one time one of those that hoped the Pope would go along with his “advisors”!
May God have mercy on an amoral America!
Viva Cristo Rey!
God bless, yours in Their Hearts,
Kenneth M. Fisher
good cause, this may surprise you but there are actually some couples left who want a large family, or at least as many children as God wishes to bless them with. Some of these folks actually use NFP to increase their chances of conceiving by being aware of their fertile times! It appears to me that you are projecting your disdain for children onto couples who don’t think like you. By the way, the empty pews you are referring to are caused by those couples having few to no children. A couple with 10 children easily occupies an entire pew in most churches! I would say that the Church is paying a dear price for all of those Catholics who have rejected Humanae Vitae!
Tracy you are correct. NFP is in accord with the “Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition”.
Those who choose to reject teachings of the Church as stated in the Catechism are those who leave the Church. They join the church of ‘ME’. Me this and me that, my will rather than God’s will.
People in all walks of life are called to be chaste, not just the unmarried.
CCC: 2362, 2394, 2348.
CCC: ” 2370 Periodic continence, that is, the methods of birth regulation based on self-observation and the use of infertile periods, is in conformity with the objective criteria of morality. These methods respect the bodies of the spouses, encourage tenderness between them, and favor the education of an authentic freedom.
In contrast, “every action which, whether in anticipation of the conjugal act, or in its accomplishment, or in the development of its natural consequences, proposes, whether as an end or as a means, to render procreation impossible” is intrinsically evil:
Thus the innate language that expresses the total reciprocal self-giving of husband and wife is overlaid, through contraception, by an objectively contradictory language, namely, that of not giving oneself totally to the other. This leads not only to a positive refusal to be open to life but also to a falsification of the inner truth of conjugal love, which is called upon to give itself in personal totality. . . . The difference, both anthropological and moral, between contraception and recourse to the rhythm of the cycle . . . involves in the final analysis two irreconcilable concepts of the human person and of human sexuality. ”
CCC: ” 2399 The regulation of births represents one of the aspects of responsible fatherhood and motherhood. Legitimate intentions on the part of the spouses do not justify recourse to morally unacceptable means (for example, direct sterilization or contraception).”
There is an inspirational story of a devote Catholic woman named Eliza Vaughan. She and her husband offered all of their 13 children back to God. Six of her eight boys became priest, two of those became Bishops and one a Cardinal. Four of her five daughters joined religious orders and the fifth remained single after being denied due to her ill health. So if you do the math, only two of her children married.
My point in recounting this story is that with the majority of Catholic couples now contracepting, we have more and more families with only two children. So how is the church benefiting from contraception? Fewer priest and religious! Yes the Church is indeed paying a dear price for ignoring Humanae Vitae!
Good Cause is a troll. “Children jamming the pews…” My goodness. I would reply further, but the comments of Good Cause are obviously the cause of one purposefully attempting to undermine Catholics in a Catholic forum.
We are all sinners. Many who attend church do not go to confession and yet all want to go to communion. Is the sin of contraception any worse than the sin of lying or gossiping. Homosexual sex and all sins that are not repented and confessed with true contrition make for an illicit communion. Serving as a Eucharistic minister and being in a sinful state no matter what the sin is should not be allowed. It is just that some homosexual sinners make their ways publicly known whereas a liar and a cheat can hide their sins. Same thing with abortion supporters. Staying in sin with ease and comfort is not working it out with Our Lord and Savior. An ill informed conscious is a sure way to separate yourself from Jesus. It comes down to wanting your own way and not the Way, the Truth and the Life that Jesus call us to.
The overriding issue about contraception is that it is fundamentally anti-human. We deny the next generation the right to life as biblically ordained. The proof is in the demographic death spiral Western Christianity finds itself trapped. We can predict with mathematical precision how long nominally Catholic countries like Spain and Italy have yet to exist, given no change in their birthrates. Patrick J. Buchanan did not call it the “suicide pill” of western civilization for no good reason.
Unfortunately many US Bishops and or their Diocese Priests do not actively and publically encourage Catholics to know and study their Faith at home.
This lack of catechesis (teaching and knowledge of the Faith) in violation of the requests of our Popes has caused many of the problems in our society today, and the falling away of many Catholics including their children.
All literate persons have an obligation to know their Faith by reading a Catholic Bible, and the “CATECHISM of the CATHOLIC CHURCH, Second Edition”.
On Sept 26, 2013 Pope Francis stated: “Certainly, he added, “we can know Jesus in the Catechism,” for, “the Catechism teaches us many things about Jesus.”
He said, “we have to study it, we have to learn it.”
Thus, “We know the Son of God, who came to save us, we understand the beauty of the history of salvation, of the love of the Father, studying the Catechism.”
Nevertheless, he asked, how many people have read the Catechism of the Catholic Church since it was published over 20 years ago? “
https://en.radiovaticana.va/news/2013/09/26/pope_francis_at_thursday_mass:_the_languages_of_knowing_jesus/en1-731891
For more quotes from Pope John Paul II, Pope Benedict XVI, and Pope Francis – regarding our reading/studying of the CCC please go to the web site: “What Catholics REALLY Believe SOURCE”.
https://whatcatholicsreallybelieve.com/
When was the last time your Diocese Bishop and Parish Priest asked their congregation to read the CCC?
If it has not been recently ask them why. (The CCC is printed in every major language.)
Those of us on the sidewalk and in the pews felt clobbered when the Pope’s message was blasted without clarifying that this was for our bishops and priests not to all Catholics equally.
As a returned and now hard-wired Catholic and no finger-wagger, I am puzzling over what we are supposed to do/say/tolerate/accept in order for the disaffected to come home. In the end, from my experience, it is the prodigal in each of us that judges himself a loser and decides to return home to the father.
I trust that in addition to a welcome mat, Catholic churches are prepared to catechise, i.e., remind us of the necessity of being in a state of grace before receiving the Eucharist.
Yes…contraception is worse than lying…it snuffs out life before it happens, it is a mortal sin…gossip is wrong, but only a venial sin…receiving Communion in a state of mortal sin is not only a sacrilege, but adds yer another mortal sin to your soul!…Yeah you’re right, the confession lines in most parish’s are almost empty (except mine it is always at overflow), while those receiving Communion are in lines full with regularity…clearly, something is amiss here, and has potential for grave sacrilege and scandal…the recipient’s are the one’s who will answer, the priest does not know the state of your soul…unless you are a saint who can discern this like St. Pio or the Cure’ of Ars
Those of you who have never heard their pastor speak out against abortion, contraception, and homosexuality ought to visit San Secondo D’Asti. It is a voice crying in the wilderness. Incidentally, I have never regarded Pius X Society as Anti -Semitic. However, they might disagree with those in the Vatican, living and dead, who state, or who have inferred, that the Old Covenant suffices for the salvation of the Jews.
Question: If the Old Covenant was supposedly sufficient to satisfy for the Jews regarding Salvation – it wouldn’t suffice because the Temple in Jerusalem is not rebuild and hence the yearly sacrifice could be made. So it would be a moot point, wouldn’t it?
Ann ~ Michael Vorhis argues that today’s rabinic Judaism is not the Judais of the old testament. Do you agree with him?
Greg: I don’t necessarily agree with Michael V – I began studying these things prior to his coming upon the scene. But if you read yourself, you will discover that the practices and beliefs of the Jews today do not coincide with those of Christ’s time. With one exception.
Christ did call the Pharisees the sons of the Father of Lies. Those who professed faithfulness to Abraham and Moses, but who rejected Him unlike Abraham or Moses would have done.
I’d also like to ask you if you know that there are Orthodox Jews who openly protest the state of Israel and decry is foundation? These Orthodox Jews – who protest in D.C. mind you – state that the foundation of Israel as a nation is calling down the wrath of God because it countermands God’s punishment of diaspora. They claim that the Jews in Israel would replace financial and political ascendancy over the grace of God Almighty.
The following is their website: https://www.truetorahjews.org/
That said, for true teaching on what non-Catholics believe and who they worship, I will always go to the source. Meaning, the Holy Father can declare that Jews/Protestants/Atheists/Muslims believe in the same God that we do. But because the Holy Father’s authority is limited to the teachings of Faith and Morals within Holy Mother Church, he cannot say with certainty what those who have objectively placed themselves OUTSIDE the Church believe. That is why Orthodox Jews, Muslims, Fundamentalist Protestants, and devout Atheists take such umbrage with the Church.
Who are we – who they have rejected – to define what they have chosen to embrace?
Part 2 Greg: The following is their website:
https://www.truetorahjews.org/
That said, for true teaching on what non-Catholics believe and who they worship, I will always go to the source. Meaning, the Holy Father can declare that Jews/Protestants/Atheists/Muslims believe in the same God that we do. But because the Holy Father’s authority is limited to the teachings of Faith and Morals within Holy Mother Church, he cannot say with certainty what those who have objectively placed themselves OUTSIDE the Church believe. That is why Orthodox Jews, Muslims, Fundamentalist Protestants, and devout Atheists take such umbrage with the Church.
Who are we – who they have rejected – to define what they have chosen to embrace?
Greg: I don’t necessarily agree with Michael V – I began studying these things prior to his coming upon the scene. But if you read yourself, you will discover that the practices and beliefs of the Jews today do not coincide with those of Christ’s time. With one exception.
Christ did call the Pharisees the sons of the Father of Lies. Those who professed faithfulness to Abraham and Moses, but who rejected Him unlike Abraham or Moses would have done.
I’d also like to ask you if you know that there are Orthodox Jews who openly protest the state of Israel and decry is foundation? These Orthodox Jews – who protest in D.C. mind you – state that the foundation of Israel as a nation is calling down the wrath of God because it countermands God’s punishment of diaspora. They claim that the Jews in Israel would replace financial and political ascendancy over the grace of God Almighty.
You greatly misunderstand the Church’s teaching. And the scriptures. Do you know what the Old Covenant is? Your texts make it appear as if you think the Old Covenant was the sacrificial system of Israel. Also:
ROME (CNS) — The Catholic Church’s relationship to Judaism as taught by the Second Vatican Council and the interpretations and developments of that teaching by subsequent popes, “are binding on a Catholic,” said the Vatican official responsible for relations with the Jews… The church’s theological reflection on its Jewish roots, as well as on the relationship between God’s covenant with the Jewish people and the new covenant instituted by Christ have been developed further and authoritatively by Blessed John Paul II and Pope Benedict XVI, he said. God’s plan of salvation for humanity began with his covenant with the Jewish people and if Christianity ignores that, he said, “it is in danger of losing its location within salvation history.”Cardinal Koch said that for Pope Benedict, the key to the theological understanding of the importance of a relationship with Judaism and Jews is that the Bible is one book detailing the entire history of salvation. While Catholics profess that, in the end, all salvation will be accomplished through Jesus Christ, “it does not necessarily follow that the Jews are excluded from God’s salvation because they do not believe in Jesus Christ as the Messiah of Israel and the son of God,” the cardinal said.
Thank you for your concern, Anonymous. I appreciate your time in posting. That said, while you may believe my understanding of Scripture to be lacking, my understanding as to how the Catholic Church, in good conscience if what you post is to be believed, can somehow absolve herself from evangelizing the nations (Jews included) under the auspices of umbrella salvation is completely void.
Of course salvation history began with the Jewish people. Of course Catholics must acknowledge their link to Judaism – much like a child cannot deny the physical attributes contributed by their parents. Of course all Salvation comes through Jesus Christ. (As with the Bible, you may want to read Koch and all in the context of Papal/Church history to get the flavor of what I’m referencing.)
That said, nobody is indicating that the Jews are excluded from Salvation explicitly because they reject Jesus Christ. No more so than anyone else if they are invincibly ignorant. And, as St. Paul says, if God can graft on the wild olive branch to the olive tree, so much more can he ‘restore’ the olive branch to the olive tree. So. no, we should not become arrogant in our belief of ‘our’ inherent superiority or worthiness. Far from it. We must be faithful.
Faithful and consistent in the call as Catholics to speak the Truth, all of it, not to promote invincible ignorance, ambiguity, a false unity so as not to offend. That is not charity.