The following comes from an April 20 Catholic News Agency article:
San Diego– Bishop Robert McElroy, the new head of the San Diego diocese, has criticized a proposal to remove the statue of pioneering California missionary and soon-to-be saint Father Junipero Serra from the U.S. Capitol.
Bishop McElroy told journalists on Wednesday that Fr. Serra is a “foundational figure” of California history. He noted that Fr. Serra is one of the few Hispanics honored in the U.S. Capitol and represents a state “rapidly becoming majority Hispanic,” the San Diego Union-Tribune reports.
The U.S. Capitol building houses two statues from each state, depicting renowned figures from the state’s history. On April 13, the California Senate voted 22-10 to remove Fr. Serra’s statue and replace it with a statue of Sally Ride, the first U.S. woman in space. The proposal must be approved by the California Assembly and Gov. Jerry Brown if it is to take effect.
Pope Francis will canonize Fr. Serra September 23 during his visit to the United States. In January, the Pope characterized Serra as “the evangelizer of the west in the United States.
Bishop McElroy you’re off to a GREAT start…..
Know prayers are coming your way!
” Bishop McElroy: wrong to use ‘intrinsic evil’ ”
McElroy needs to start reading the ‘Doctrine of the Faith’ which is contained in the “Catechism of the Catholic Church, second edition”.
There are 10 paragraphs in the CCC that use the word “INTRINSICALLY”.
There are some sins that are INTRINSICALLY EVIL and can NEVER be approved.
If this Bishop does not know the Doctrine of the Faith accurately and in entirety, how does anyone expect him to teach others ?
Does anyone think McElroy will teach others to read Sacred Scripture and the CCC at home ?
Many thanks from an old Staff Member of Camp Junipero Serra. Junipero Serra Boys are the best in the West.
I’m not writing this post to brag but to say “So what!?” about Sally Ride being first female in space? How does that influence California in any way? https://www.omgfacts.com/lists/6632/Ohio-is-home-to-24-astronauts
If we don’t have a statue to any of our astronauts, including Judith Reznik from Akron who died in the Challenger explosion, then why would California. Ms. Ride would be almost completely forgotten if it hadn’t come out that she was a lesbian. How pathetic is that?
Good for the bishop.
Soooo… Who is going to Lead the Organized Campaign to Keep the “Blessed Junipero Serra” monument in the Capitol?
This will naturally involve either motivating the Assembly and or Governor Moonbeam (ostensibly a ‘catholic’ hisself) – or possibly have it put to a Citizen Referendum on just who We want to be representatives of California and its colorful history.
Any Takers – Any Givers – Anybody?
This is great, But, a little too late perhaps to do any good. And where are the voices of the other California bishops? Silence is deadly !
It is difficult to follow a Bishop like McElroy who does not adhere to the Bible and also the Doctrine of the Faith (CCC),
and attacked Abp Cordileone regarding Catholic School employees teaching and giving good examples according to the Faith.
Bishop McElroy did a good thing, and deserves credit.
He gets a standing ovation when he opens the San Diego Diocese to the TLM.
People, the wonderful Benedict XVI decried “professional Catholics”. Unfortunately, Francis fawns over these same people (who need little encouragement). Bishop McElroy is clearly one of those in the King’s Court who will do much to curry favor.
Let’s see, not too difficult here: Pope loves Fr. Serra. Pope wants to canonize Fr. Serra (notwithstanding growing popular opposition in America and among its CA Hispanics). Pope is stubborn in doing things “his way”. B. McElroy is a new bishop. B. McElroy is entirely a man of Vatican II, with no knowledge, or taste for, what the Church was before 1960. Conclusion: B. McElroy will do pretty much anything to curry favor with The Big Guy (“TBG”).
Two things to watch: TBG is increasingly playing out his anti-Tradition hand (e.g., see the most recent removal of Bishop Finn, a wonderful Catholic leader), and bishops (like McElroy) are increasingly doing all they can to get a royal backslap (i.e., expect more of the same). Who is next on TBG hit list? The list of bishops with Traditional behavior is already small. Watch out Bishops Sample, and Morlino (and only a couple of others. (Archbishop Cordileone is likely safe for now; TBG needs an example of tolerance toward Tradition here and there.)
What are you going to do about this, Catholic People?
Well, the TLM (Extraordinary Mass) was the one Blessed Junipero Serra used, so it has that going for it. Maybe we should ask his intercession for more of those Masses. I will.
St. C, it is interesting that some people think that Bishop McC might not be as big a “fan” of the TLM as they would like. Let’s consider what is happening in the choice of Bishops in the U.S. This Bishop was born in 1954. By age of ten, VII was in full swing. Except for a few years, perhaps, he was not raised with the TLM. Bishops usually are consecrated at about age 50-60. That puts a lot of them int the post VII era, so that they really do not know the TLM, and at the time they went through seminary, it wasn’t in the curriculum. We may wish that more Bishops knew the TLM, but the numbers are going down every year. It may come to the point where parishioners of TLM may have to raise the money to train their pastors in the Extraordinary form of the Mass, because fewer and fewer priest know or understand it, and some have never experienced it. I was raised in a very traditional parish, with three priests on the altar very often, many choirs well trained in chant, etc. But that was fifty years ago, and I have become accustomed to the NO. In local parishes there are a few priests who are willing to remember or be trained in the EF for those who want to attend, but they are few and far between. In another fifty years, will there be any priest who has ever attended an EF. Who would teach them the Latin?
Thank you Bishop from an old Staff Member of Camp Junipero Serra. “Jonipero Serra Boys are the Best in the West. They keep things going and they never take a rest. Junipero Serra Forever.”
Thank you Bishop. You are in our prayers. Looking forward to a conversation or in writing soon.
Will those in the Traditional side of the faith reach out to men and women who have many tattoos, who have had an abortion, who are victims due to feminism and the cause of feminism? Will they reach out and share the Latin Mass with them, without judging them harshly and shunning them because of their looks?
How about will those in the Traditional side of the faith, will they stop excusing men for their porn addictions, will they call it what it is, adultery, will they teach them that it hurts women and children. Will they supply support groups for them when they find themselves victims, when they need support for their children who have gone bad due to worldly ways. I am speaking up for the women whom I know personally, who are right now finding themselves in situations where they need this support. Will they have to go to protestant groups to get the well research thought out support that they need. My friend M and R are very devout Catholics. Pray that what we all learn together as we help these sisters of ours in crises, that perhaps our Lord will bless a ministry support group for Devout Catholic women, to find the support they need, not from priests who are harsh to woman, who excuse men for their bad behaviors, yes in even in the Latin Mass parish. A lot of hush hush, secrets and “well you can’t get divorced but no real offer of support either”, Some OF parishes where a bit more helpful but still need improvement. Pray for it to be God’s holy will to help the church get more involved by their faithfulness to the CCC and holy scripture. The word of God does help people take accountability. for their actions. No more excuses for infidelity, for abortion, mistreatment of devout women etc.
Abeca I see that you are hurting deeply over the suffering of you’re friends. You brought up many different things … tattoos, abortion, pornography, adultery and shunning people. Abeca, I also hesitate to answer you because of recent exchanges but for the sake of mercy and compassion I will try to address you’re questions. Since you also brought up abortion please watch the entire powerful video below and and show this video to your hurting friends. Show them the strength of this woman addressing both men and women about always leaning MAINLY on Christ Crucified, no matter what our individual sufferings or trials may be. See both the men and the women in the audience who are very deeply moved by this good woman being used as instrument of truth, hope and love from God. Also, encourage you’re friends to continue to go and ask Jesus for help and have them speak to Jesus from the heart in front of the Tabernacle.
Abeca, When our previous bishop was singularly persecuting good faithful priests and the Catholics who were attached to the TLM then a group of Catholics went to visit a pastor at another parish in our diocese. Many, many people were hurting, similar to you’re friends, but they were hurting for a different reason, but STILL hurting because of terribly cruel injustices hoisted upon good priests and faithful Catholic friends. Many Catholics left the diocese and this should concern our bishops as much as their concern and care for illegal immigrants. What truly “good father” rejoices when his any of his children are deeply wounded or scattered?
Well said Abeca!!! Spoken like a true prophet.
Abeca, YOU are the apostolate work that can make a difference when trying to help you’re hurting friends. Christ is showing you the goodness in the Protestants who helped you’re friend and you could bring the Fullness of Truth to them and to the Catholic parishes that you’re friends came in contact with. Don’t pit OF with EF Abeca because then you are doing the very same thing that you are accusing others of. Just speak the welcoming Full Truth to all who are hurting for various reasons. as well as those who are striving to follow the CCC and Sacred Scripture in order to be pleasing to God and not agendas. You used to do that so beautifully on CCD.
The same love and compassion that you feel for these hurting women, faithful Catholics feel the very same when watching faithful priests suffer for simply being faithful. Also, at that time no one wanted to publicly touch this conversation with a ten foot pole for fear of also being persecuted. This pastor who we visited listened for well over two hours and I sincerely believe that he was just as moved when hearing the truth spoken without hysterics as we were moved by the incredible charitable concern and sincere compassion that he was showing. Seeds were surely planted that day in both directions and they both stemmed from charity,
Thanks Catherine. And my comments where to bring awareness. I havent had time to read your responses so to be fair, ill try latet. Have a blessed day and do what you can too to help our priests be faithful to His word and the CCC so they can treat devout Catholic women with respect. I did respond to Ann T to help bring more awareness. Thanks
Abeca there were no truths left unsaid but it was how they were communicated. This pastor did not want us to leave, he bent over backwards to let us know he cared. This pastor said that there should be room for everyone under the umbrella of a diocese but in practice I told him that this was not true and even he agreed. This experience reminded me of what Michael Savage said about the behavior of a “true liberal”. Michael Savage was talking about a Constitutional scholar who once was completely supportive of Barack Obama. This scholar now sees what happens when clear boundaries are being trampled on and abused so now even this scholar is truthfully challenging Barack Obama’s obvious trampling of the Constitution. Abeca, Many roads lead to Rome. Maybe even Michael Savage one day!
Abeca, Since you also brought up abortion and victims of feminism please view the entire video. Gianna strongly addresses the necessity for courageous men and she also speaks to the women.
‘One of the best Pro-life speeches EVER! Gianna Jessen abortion survivor Full video – YouTube’
More gratuitous demonizing of Traditional-oriented Catholics (“excusing men for porn addictions,” “[they]excuse men for their bad behaviors, yes in even in the Latin Mass parish. A lot of hush hush, secrets..”, “excuses for infidelity, for abortion, mistreatment of devout women..” ). This list of accusations is so thick one could cut it with a knife. It’s also general and designed to create stereotypical disgust. Other recent attempts have used anti-Semitism and pro-Nazi allegations. Sedes-vacaaantists, schismaaatics, heretics.
The increase in vitriolic judgment is ramping up in recent months, in a definite direction, to personalize, demonize, freeze in time, and destroy people both individuals and as a group who are traditionally oriented Catholics. Fr. Illo, those who attend the SSPX (and I am not SSPX, but refuse to judge them), Bp. Finn, Fr. Nicholas Gruner, and so on. When you come to the final conclusion that a “type of people” are secret abusers, occult evildoers, and should be eliminated—yes, that is where this is going. Name-calling always precedes active persecution, hounding and rounding people up, finally killing them.
Now, that wouldn’t happen here, of course, in the USA. Of course not.
What in heavens name are you talking about or trying to say in your last comment. None of it makes any sense to me. Can you restate in a non-rant, non-conspiracy theory manner?
Bob One I know what you mean. Steve is part of the on going problem. He should go to confession for his ill thinking against my comments. Women hurt by all injustices even coming from the Traditional side, do not appreciate his denial. God have mercy on him.
“B.O. I know what you mean” = SO DO WE! It’s called “the soap opera drama mama enabling of wolves”.
Yes, the evidence is there. The silence spoke volumes of evidence. I know what YOU mean. This poster also prefers to build enabling bridges with YFC and B.O. This is not about the smokescreen distraction of tattoo bearing couples at Legoland. As if anyone who posts on this website would be mean and cruel to someone for having a tattoo. Ridiculous build up soap opera drama mama. Telltale is the *preference of enabling Bob One*. B.O. is a recognized enabling excuse maker for ‘Ugly as Sin’ church wreckovators or left wing corruption in Catholic Charities and many drive by undermining comments regarding Cardinal Burke and the TLM for quite some time. How dare this enabler accuse Steve Phoenix of being the ongoing problem. Preposterous lie! This enabler of duplicitousness should follow her own advice and go to confession. Enabling birds of a feather ARE the ongoing problem and Abeca just proved it by flocking in “full enabling union” together with B.O. not to mention past failed attempts to attribute great wisdom to YFC. Steve Phoenix, You are correct about the ramping up of vitriolic judgments. We see this in the recent events (Bishop Finn) as well as the soap opera drama set up posts and the anonymous hit pieces aimed at attacking Father Illo. The enabling of B.O. now speaks for itself. No matter how much a poster talks about their attachment and preference of the TLM Mass over the NO, this should never outweigh the enabling of wolves in sheep’s clothing. Period.
BobOne gets corrected all the time by posters. Where have you been Catherine?
Current OFFICIAL Catholic Church position regarding the SSPX:
” The fact that the Society of Saint Pius X does not possess a canonical status in the Church is not, in the end, based on disciplinary but on doctrinal reasons.
As long as the Society does not have a canonical status in the Church, its ministers do not exercise legitimate ministries in the Church.
There needs to be a distinction, then, between the disciplinary level, which deals with individuals as such, and the doctrinal level, at which ministry and institution are involved.
In order to make this clear once again: until the doctrinal questions are clarified, the Society has no canonical status in the Church,
and its ministers – even though they have been freed of the ecclesiastical penalty – do not legitimately exercise any ministry in the Church. ” – Pope Benedict, March, 2009.
(When/if the Pope changes this official position, it will be posted in writing on the Vatican web site.)
I have breaking news for the poster who sometimes calls herself Abeca….She has been VERY un- Christian example to those who do love God and don’t have tattoos. Also for the sake of new readers in addressing the drama narrative…There ARE ALWAYS going to be disappointments in the human condition everywhere PERIOD. We certainly witnessed that disappointment in Abeca’s vitriolic posts to Ann Malley. Anyhoooo… The Full Truth is still the FULL TRUTH. To turn this into a tattoo distraction or a “my friends are now looking at the OF differently” is an utterly absurd smokescreen.
BTW…Men suffer many injustices. Men are often abused by selfish women. Yes, sinful selfish women also cheat on husbands and women can also be addicted to drugs, drinking, food and porn. Men often have to put up with the draining drama of emotionally unstable wives who want to go on and on about their own lone perceived wonderful kindness toward people who have “tattoos”.
We all know where Ann Malley and Steve Phoenix stands regarding everything. Steve Phoenix has not flip flopped. Neither has Ann Malley or anyone who calls for clarifications in Church teaching. Steve Phoenix has not duplicitously hid anything while posting on this website. To tell Steve Phoenix to go to confession while enabling B.O. was just the evidence needed. Steve Phoenix I know you already saw it but anyhoooo.. the benefit of the doubt was given and there is no doubt any more.
Catherine sure has much malice in her heart. Your exactly the traditional people i come accross, often misinterpreting and full of self righteousness. For the record this woman Catherine said legoland. I said lego event. Not at legoland. Toys rus has free lego events for kids. And my comments come from experience, what i see from some of those who call themselves traditional and how judgeful they are. Thats why i didnt feel comfortable inviting that couple to the TLM. Not for now but im hoping to bring awareness and that people will correct the self rightious uncharitable behaviors that some display. I say it with a heavy heart because I promote the TLM and its discouraging that sometimes guests may not feel worthy to be part of a traditional group. Ive seen it happen and often found myself trying to defend them in the past. Ive posted before examples. Like the veil police, you forget your veil, watch out, but thank God the pastor corrected those bad welcoming behaviors from some. Yes their pastor corrected that.
So what heresy is this?
Seriously, a person who rebels against the Catholic Church does not become “good” because they are consistent and clear.
What you don’t seem to understand, Abeca, is that you telling people to “go to confession” is not something you should do either. Lamenting the perceived sins of others based on a stereotype isn’t exactly communicating either, especially when one is at the same time extolling their own outreach.
“…thank God the pastor corrected those bad welcoming behaviors from some.” (You may want to ask your pastor about precisely what you’re doing and ask him to guide you.)
“…Your exactly the traditional people i come accross, often misinterpreting and full of self righteousness.”
This description quite often fits you, Abeca, with the one exception that you also attend the Novus Ordo. You have your own experience and understanding of issues, but often reject or attribute to sin and/or malice the objective knowledge of others who are perfectly faithful. This is a shame as there are many ways of welcoming and many ways of rejecting out-of-hand what one doesn’t understand.
“For the record this woman Catherine said legoland. I said lego event. Not at legoland. Toys rus has free lego events for kid ” = Unbelievable! Legoland vs Lego Event. = For the record, notice the Quick Draw Mcgraw ability to make a profound clarification when it comes to “lego locations” but the unwillingness to require that B.O. clarify PROFOUND SUBSTANCE when caught in the posting act of undermining and mocking those who “hold fast to their Traditions. = Evidence of the enabling works of an enabler of wolves.
SECOND EPISTLE OF ST. PAUL TO THE THESSALONIANS – CHAPTER 2 :
10] God shall send: That is God shall suffer them to be deceived by lying wonders, and false miracles, in punishment of their not entertaining the love of truth.
 That all may be judged who have not believed the truth, but have consented to iniquity.  But we ought to give thanks to God always for you, brethren, beloved of God, for that God hath chosen you firstfruits unto salvation, in sanctification of the spirit, and faith of the truth:  Whereunto also he hath called you by our gospel, unto the purchasing of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.  Therefore, brethren, stand fast; and hold the traditions which you have learned, whether by word, or by our epistle.  Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God and our Father, who hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation, and good hope in grace,
 Traditions: See here that the unwritten traditions are no less to be received than their epistles.”
Sad, but truly said, Catherine.
Ann Malley i feel sorry for you. I was going to respond to your comments but your agreement to Catherines malicious filled comments just told me why bother. I was going to say glad you had a good experience but my friends didnt. I consider myself traditional but you two ladies are hypocrates and give the traditional cause a bad name. Moving on. Its too bad that we cant bring awareness on issues that affect conservative devout Catholics without you too ladies making it all about your bad will agenda. Catherine is phony. She tried being charitable to me while sharpening her knife to add a stab later. So much for her phoney charity. I wanted to respond to her but after her last comments, why bother. Ann T is right, you ladies provoke unnecessary bickering. You work against the true mission of the church. So take your ill assumed comments else where.
Thank you Ann! It is sad, isn’t it. A reality nevertheless. This “veil police” business is a very lame way to try and paint a deliberate big negative broad brush picture of fellow Catholics. Yes, there are those who do run over to hand a veil to someone who does not have one. No one is denying that. I have witnessed this. The full truth is….Some people LOVE to have someone hand them a veil and some DON’T. During the time that I served on our parish council we discussed these things. You’d be very surprised how many people there are who did want someone to hand them a veil or they felt left out. People are different in beautiful ways and they all have their unique gifts to share. I know many people who want to walk inside a Catholic Church without having to get into a conversation with a Walmart-like greeter. They feel like they are being forced into accepting Protestant practices and customs. Catholics are mentally preparing for the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass and would prefer to be left alone in order to prepare and reflect. Should we follow Abeca’s example and call them names like the “Wall Mart-like greeter police” who frisk your peace after they stop you to make sure that you say hi to everyone when you’d rather be left alone to reflect. I also know people who love to be greeted or they feel that no one cares.
Abeca your teflon approach to life, Faith, and what constitutes truth is typical. God bless you in your pursuit of truth… but you may want to watch yourself when advocating “having” to reach outside the Catholic Church. You give yourself away, removing any need for making assumptions.
Lego event is at Toys R Us event ….a free lego event….where they give free lego’s to build for kids and its a fun thing they do for parents and their children. This women’s insinuations are coming from a place of bad will. Shame on you Catherine for your continuation to slander and to make insinuation that only try to undermine because you are of bad will. You may sharpen that knife but Jesus is my protector and your wickedness will have no power over me!
Ave maria purissima
Catherine you can thank Ann Malley all you want but you and her are still wrong. The truth hurts remember.
Yes, Abeca, truth hurts which is why a woman who “may” have been told amid marriage counseling that she “may” have been a contributing factor to her husband’s infidelity went off the handle and blamed the priest for not being supportive of “her”. (But often the truth is the best support he can give her….. if only she’ll listen.)
Much like you go off when you fuss and cause problems and then point to everyone else but yourself to take the blame. That’s not holy, Abeca, and it is not supportive in the long run either in helping a marriage succeed. The doe-eyed “innocent” often needs to wake up and see that her husband needs his help, the help of an adult woman who understands him and her own duties, not just a vine to support. And not just a mother to his children – but a wife. That, however, doesn’t get received very well by some. (Passive – aggressive behavior is still, by its nature, aggressive.)
And, by the way, many folks aren’t so sensitive as to take umbrage at being helped when it comes to understanding proper decorum and/or dress. They appreciate help because they want to LEARN and/or be respectful. But a defensive prickly pear will be a defensive prickly pear no matter who approaches her with the truth.
And thank you, Catherine, for helping those who want to LEARN. Good grief, I cannot count the number of women who’ve said, “Gosh, I wish somebody had told me.” or “Thanks for letting me borrow something.”
But ruffled feathers will always be ruffled when someone looks to be offended.
PETE you are correct. Your posts are consistant with the truth. On these threads, they are what help combat the bad behaviors that often happen here.
Abeca Christian, I have been trying to stay off of here because I get so tired of all the bickering, but I thought I would just answer one of your questions — perhaps to ease you mind a little.
My husband (not a Traditionalists) and I were brought up in a day and age when tattoos were considered a desecration of the body. My husband’s mother, although of Mexican heritage, had no tattoos of any kind, and neither did any of her children to my knowledge, some of whom were in the U.S. Military — Marines, Army and Air Force. They did not like graffiti of any kind period.
That was the thinking of the majority of devout American Christians and Jews back then, and still is for many. When Hitler wanted to humiliate the Jewish people and keep track of them, he forced them to be tattooed with a number. One reason was because he knew it was against their religion.
I do not know if you know it, but most Traditionalists I know dress very modestly at Mass with three-quarter to full length sleeves, both men and women, even in hotter weather. Most women wear three-quarter to full length skirts with colored tights or stockings under shorter skirts. There are some women who come in their work cloths which are slacks with an over blouse, tunic or other appropriate blouse. Therefore, if a Traditionalist even had a tattoo, and some probably do, it is highly unlikely anyone would ever even see it, so if one is dressed traditionally and comes to one of their Masses and has tattoos, it seems to me it is a non issue.
Many people have gotten tattoos, only to regret it later and cover it or them up in the business environment where they are not considered appropriate. Most people, also, do not make a big issue out of one tattoo showing, unless it vulgar.
Anne T I do not like tattoos. So no worries. I only wrote what I wrote was to bring awareness. About a month ago, i ran into a couple who had tons of tattoo’s at a lego event, that I took my youngest to. The line was long and I had a chance to chat with the young couple. Inside my heart I kept wanting to invite them to our TLM. I really wanted to invite them to Mass, so instead I invited them to a nearby OF mass, that I knew was faithful. I reminded them that their body was the temple of of the Lord’s and that they should consider removing their tattoo’s. The woman did not take offense, but instead said it was too expensive and painful to remove, I told her “yes I heard”. We talked longer and talked about lego stuff too. I still encouraged them to attend Mass. I told her that I hope to see them at mas sometime. I recommended them Little flower haven. I felt that we need to reach out to them. People judge just because they have tons of tattoo’s but forget to realize that people already mark their bodies but they are still yearning for the truth and for a relationship with Christ. Its not easy though, its a lot easier to put people in a box and forget about them or judge them without realizing that they are sinners just like we are, they too need Jesus. Just because we are filled with wisdom and knowledge, it doesn’t mean that people who do not look traditional, does not mean that they will never receive our Lord graces either, they just need our prayers and time…..I hope people will take the time to reach out to people in which they find not normal.
….I just happened upon this post, Abeca, and must say, having traveled around the country very often, and being part of many traditional parishes, that YES, absolutely there are Traditional Catholics with tattoos, those who have had abortions, those who have even been exposed to the worst of pagan, new age ideology and the worst of all that entails….feel free to let your mind wander.
I’ve witnessed young women with tattoos (those who *still* have them) who now have families full of active little homeschooled children. I’ve witnessed very dedicated TLM priests who go out of their way, taking much personal time (what little they have) and tender devotion, to surround such souls with all of the support, prayers, friendship and personalized encouragement to go the distance, trusting in God and His Providence by way of embracing Catholic Tradition – ALL OF IT. The personal, penitential and often daily sacrifices of these men for individual souls – the things they do not speak of – are REAL.
Believe it or no, my experience is that the diocese tended to not reach out to these broken ones – not personally anyway. The outreach was rather the dumbing down of the truth and or the ignoring of painful realities that even these souls “knew” to be serious issues. There was no spiritual acknowledgement of spiritual realities.
I was afraid at one point that my own husband would be turned off of the TLM because it was “too” Catholic only to discover that the overt and layered truth of the TLM spoke to him as no one else could do. Because it was real, unafraid, uncompromising. Deeply spiritual. And always tendering the message of carrying one’s cross – especially those crosses that the world declares to be unbearable, ridiculous, unacceptable and against our human “rights”.
And YES, I (like many other devout TLM adherents) speak with those who believe themselves to be outcasts and beyond redemption. I was one of those, Abeca. We all were/are when you get right down to it. Please, try to see that in calling Traditionalists out for being “judgmental” you are unfairly judging and perpetuating yet another false stereotype that can keep many from receiving the help that they truly need, even if at times that help can seem harsh. (Often the message of having to bear the cross is received as not being helpful. But the reality of the Faith is bearing the cross, and often it is the crushing weight of having been wronged, continually wronged, and even abandoned while still responding with kindness. That is NOT excusing the bad behavior, not by any means, but rather it is the truth of the Imitation of Christ that all devout souls are called to accomplish.)
Prayers for your dear friends – that they will come to know that we are all victims to some extent, often and most especially those who are so wounded as to treat those whom they should love and honor with gross disregard.
My friends R and M are Traditional. The reality is that they find themselves now understanding that just because a priest is traditional, it doesnt mean that they would handle well or give them the right support. If their traditional pastor was actually living the word of God and not just preaching it, he would of shown more compassion, listened compassionately and would have used the word of God and the CCC to give them hope and not shun their phone calls. An Italian holy priest from the OF was one who did give hope to one of my friends. Thats all i got to say to that. These two friends use to dislike the OF but now they have a different point of view.
…interesting and yet the form of mass shouldn’t be liked and or disliked based on the “person” of the priest. It is Christ who gives hope.
Even so, your comments make me curious as to what you consider the traditional priests lack of compassion to be.
Ann Malley is kinda right because in this day and age if one is attending a TLM (a legitimate one) issues like this should not occur.
I do not know what Ann is referring to with this sentence:
“And always tendering the message of carrying one’s cross – especially those crosses that the world declares to be unbearable, ridiculous, unacceptable and against our human “rights”.”
but in the context that Abeca is referring to where a woman is blamed for her husbands infidelity, that is not traditional Catholicism. Traditional Catholicism places the blame squarely on the sinner. In today’s world, you still have to carry the cross of a cheating husband but you no longer have to carry the cross of a husband who abuses you or your children. In that instance, your cross becomes having to separate for the safety and good of your children.
I was not aware that the woman Abeca was referring to was “blamed” for her husband’s infidelity. But then there are always at least two sides to a story when dealing with a married couple – and often the party who claims themselves wholly innocent, while not openly cheating themselves, is guilty of other sins. Sins of omission perhaps and/or other things that did not aid their spouse in avoiding the occasion, but rather aided them in their fall. The same can be said of “rebelling” children.
And that can often be difficult to hear, especially when one is hurting.
That is why I am rather hesitant to believe that a traditional Catholic priest did what was implied here. I tend to think that the situation was handled in a rather practical manner that suggested a “how did we get to this point” approach and “what can we do now”. The excess of emotion and finger pointing seems out of proportion…. especially when combined with the intimation that someone has to look outside the Faith to find the support they need.
God bless you Anonymous. Dont waste your time with these ladies. They only cause choas instead of solutions. They bicker and turn any good deed into what they assume as ill. They are uncharitable. I dont blame Anne T, shes right on about the bickering these women provoke. While it should be important issues to bring forth awareness, they will turn important issues that affect families into chaos. Its disgusting how they tried turning this as some kind of conspiracy thing. Look at Steve’s comments. Its a perfect example of his bad will and disrespectful behavior towards the situations affecting woman. Shame on him and these ladies who pride themselves as Traditional Catholics. Yea right.
The cheater is at fault. Always. He or she made a vow and is wholly responsible for keeping the vow, even if the other party does not.
You see, Demonizing and Character-Assassination is tolerably Good if it tis for the Proper Cause.
Dont read into it. No malice intent ok. Its Christ yes and Christ will bless us with holy priests both in the OF and EF. This should remind all to what my friends concluded. Traditional doesnt mean perfection. They are human too.
….it’s the traditional teachings of Christ that lead to perfection which is why one shouldn’t base their liking of a rite on the personality/charism of any one priest. That is why cleaving to the traditional teachings is what we all should do – not attempt novelty based on feelings. Especially not feelings during times of trial – that’s a basic rule of spiritual discernment.
For often we can change course based on our feelings and then be led down the wrong road when the “feelings” pass. Much like a spouse who cheats and/or leaves a spouse based on a feeling and or mistreatment only to commit sin while attempting to alleviate the “feeling” and/or to seek the “understanding” because, after all, their spouse doesn’t “understand” them and that’s often the excuse for straying.
That is why commenting that the Catholic Church needs to “learn” to support women more, like other sects do, is dangerous. It leads one to think that support groups are the Faith. And that bolstering our “feelings” is the basis for Faith. This is simply not so.
Well regardless of how some feel or state their opinions in regards to my posts…..my friend asked me to post these resources to help women:
Anonymous you are right, there is no excuse to adultery, people still have free will. And breaking ones vows is serious and men nor women should be excused. A priest should treat women with more compassion when they are dealing with a husband choosing to break his vows. Men can be insensitive to what woman endure especially if the woman is a stay at home mother and has 5 or more children, having to look outside the church for support, is not just. Its not just in any case but when a woman is vulnerable because she depends on her husband for income and such and has no real support.
Abeca , The pastor of this parish listened to our concerns. I could see initially that he was extremely uncomfortable and ill at ease with the conversation but he still showed charity and listened and his demeanor changed. I think what changed his heart and his mind was listening to the complete Truth being explained in a non hysterical, non name calling or accusatory conversation.
This pastor told us that it was VERY WRONG for Traditional Catholics to be treated the way we were being treated. That was a comforting admission Abeca. This pastor who was admittedly liberal went out of his way to let us know that we would be aways be welcome to come to his parish and that Catholics should not be persecuted because they were attached to the TLM or wanted to kneel or uphold “all” Church teaching. He said that if we came to his parish that no one in his parish would be allowed to persecute or badger Traditional Catholics like the diocese was. I told him that I would love to one day come to his parish because of the beautiful focus on the horizontal work taking place but that the focus on the vertical was still out of sort. He did not get upset Abeca because by the grace of God, this pastor compassionately sensed truth. Abeca we all have our work cut out and I would like to see you succeed in helping ALL of you’re Catholic brothers and sisters in Christ who are in crisis.
Thanks Catherine this post of yours was kind. Thank you and i will try to reply later.
Catherine, Steve Phoenix, etc
In OFFICIALl Church teaching – I do not know what a “Traditional Catholic” is.
Please provide the paragraph number of the CCC. or the page number Catechism of Trent that refers to “traditional Catholic”.
(I own both catechisms.)
If you can not find it, that means that it is merely one more term that causes DIVISION.
Those who identify themselves as better or separate from all other Catholics commit a grave sin. You are not special or perfect.
However, there are FAITHFUL Catholics,
versus HERETICS, and SCHISMATICS.
CCC: ” 2089
INCREDULITY is the neglect of revealed truth or the willful refusal to assent to it.
HERESY is the obstinate post-baptismal denial of some truth which must be believed with divine and catholic faith, or it is likewise an obstinate doubt concerning the same;
APOSTACY is the total repudiation of the Christian faith;
SCHISM is the refusal of submission to the Roman Pontiff or of communion with the members of the Church subject to him.”
PETE, the Truth causes division. And capitalizing terms doesn’t mean you are applying them accurately. God bless.
Not within the Church, Ann Malley
The TRUTH within the Church is contained in a Catholic Bible and the CCC.
There should be no division.
There should be love of neighbor.
Bravo PETE and Lanie. God bless you for speaking the truth. The truth will set us free. Jesus is the truth and the way. Praise be His Holy Ghost for your obedience by posting what you just posted. Praise be His most Holy name. Not all will be open to the truths you posted but in His time, these seeds will flourish. Let God”s holy will be done. His will be done, in His time.
Lannie, keep that head firmly fixed in the CCC and you can avoid the reality of the prelates all around that do not agree. That is why active “love of neighbor” should be to point out the truth consistently and with charity. But that is truth, not what someone thinks the truth is or that the reality of crisis within the Church doesn’t exist.
Suggestion: Please learn how to spell “apostasy” before the next time you decide to lecture, Pete.
PETE excellent comments!
So, Pete, I am going to assume you are serious in wanting to know the distinctions that have arisen in the Church among belief by Catholics in the last 50 years (We will see). The Catechism of Trent nor the CCC are not the issue: in fact, applying St Vincent of Lerins’ rule (What is Catholic is to hold what the Church has always taught and believed, everywhere) shows the consistency of these two Catechisms.
But you must be aware the according to the Denzinger-Schonmetzer Index (This is the index or encyclopedia of what all Catholics must believe) that Christ instituted the Mass (DS 1727, taken from Trent) and it is a liturgy made by God, not by men. So, for one thing, the New Mass was designed by Abp. Annibale Bugnini, some “neo-archeologist” liturgists, and 6 very Protestant observers: so the New Mass is made by men, not by God in Jesus Christ, as Trent and the Denzinger Index defines.
Let’s look at the disturbing ambiguity of many phrases and individual sentences of Vatican II. “Bishops..can nevertheless proclaim Christ’s doctrine infallibly too…” (Lumen Gentium, n. 25) Well that isnt exactly “defining” doctrine, but Card Marx, Kasper and others state they are “not a subsidiary of Rome” and they can decide how to apply doctrine (cf LG 27) on their own. Now don’t accuse me of “taking V2 out of context”: your argument is lost here: your beef is with the non-traditional “Catholics” such as Marx, Kasper, Danneels, Maradiaga, and others, who have announced they will go their own way, empowered by Vatican II (which they constantly cite as their justification mind you)…
Pete: But worst of all, it is the “Spirit of Vatican II”, a phrase that first was used by Yves Congar, one of the many controversial “periti” of the Council, to describe a speech by the progressive Card. Leger of Montreal to go beyond—in effect, really to ignore—the actual written word of the Council and to enact vast and unending self-validated revolutionary change in the Church. The phrase “The Spirit of V2” is always used by the revolutionary left to launch ever increasing change and revolution even today, in the Church. We are reaping that harvest abundantly now.
Evidence of this “unending revolutionary change” was also validated by Gaudium et Spes, which stated the Church needed to note “the signs of the times” (GS 4), and if by adapting to the modern age (“aggiornamiento”—which, by the way, is no where in any of the conciliar documents), it was predicted by council experts there would result a “New Pentecost” (Card.Leo Suenens), a “New Springtime” in the Church. The truth was closer to what Cardinal Suenens said, approvingly, in an interview at the time: “Vatican II is the French Revolution in the Church.” Yves Congar said, glowingly: “The Church has had its October Revolution.” The nature of revolutions is that they don’t ever stop: because the chaos and disorder they unleash eventually is so vast that anarchic collapse is the inevitable result.
I thought this article was about who should represent California in the U.S. Capital?
Could we just end all the bickering by just recognizing that holy and devout Catholics have two forms of the Mass from which to choose. Really folks, one is not better than the other, just different. Attend whichever one floats your boat. But, and this is important, we all need to stop judging people for attending the form we don’t attend and we need to stop telling non-Catholics that one form is better than the other. If we could stipulate this idea, we would save a lot of band width.
Bob one I still stand by my comments from April 28, 2015 at 9:09 pm. The only time it leads to bickering it is when Ann Malley, steve and Catherine and others of their like mind, come on this forum to undermine any good one tries to convey. So read my comments from April 28, 2015 at 9:09 pm.
So no bickering here, it only turns that way because of their bullying. They don’t just disagree with things but they also produce assumptions and chaos. they complain about the issues we face in the church but they are also part of the problem and their disrespectful and pride filled comments are a perfect witness of that. They are busy undermining good. Real traditional women in the faith, who are faithful to the Magesterium, do not appreciate their poorly representation of what they preach to be.
Gee, Bob One, since you are the very soul of moderation, certainly I will dare to speak for Catherine, Ann Malley, and any others who would want to abide by your rules of speaking in a “non-rant, non-conspiracy theory manner?” (April 23rd Bob One post). No condescension intended, of course.
Since you aspire to be moderator for Cal-Catholic (I thought they were doing a pretty good job, actually), maybe also you can advise your cheerleaders to learn how to spell “chaos” and “hypocrite” since these are very useful terms for flinging at trad-oriented Catholics (like Ann Malley, Catherine, etc)? I find the name-calling the sure Mark of the Novus Ordo (as well as the mis-spellings). There is no fault in Charity when You are a Proud Member-Defender of the New Church.
And by the way, Bob One, there ARE kneelers in St Peter’s Basilica in Rome. (at the Bernini Throne daily Mass area, and in the Adoration Chapel on the right side of the nave, as well strewn throughout the baslicia’s chapels elsewhere).
Steve, you are correct, there were kneelers in St. Peter’s when I was there, as you suggested, in the Adoration Chapel. There were no seats at all in the nave of the church, since there was no ceremony those days.
Ok, just want the record to be set straight that there ARE kneeled in St Peter’s and by the way, also in the nave (The “Bernini Throne” area is in the nave) and at the St Peter’s Confessional, and in fact at all the side altars around the basilica, besides the Adoration Chapel.
Factions and strife are listed as a deeds of the flesh and the Bible says that those who practice them will not inherit the kingdom of God.
And the devil can quote Scripture too. And learn how too spell “Galatians”, Bible Expert!
And, as to the subject, whether Bp McElroy chooses to return to teaching what the Church has always taught or not, whether one more Catholic pioneer statue falls or not (After Serra, I guess Arizona’s Fr. Eusebio Kino will fall next), showing the ever-further collapse of Catholic participation in this country, here is what Card. Robert Sarah says about the current state of affairs in the Church (some of you know this quote, but it is worth noting):
“The idea that would consist in placing the Magisterium in a nice box by detaching it from pastoral practice — which could evolve according to the circumstances, fads, and passions — is a form of heresy, a dangerous schizophrenic pathology.” -Cardinal Robert Sarah, prefect for Sacred Congregation for Divine Worship: Interview in book, Dieu ou Rien (“Either God or Nothing”), cf. Rorate-Caeli.blogspot, 2/2/15 (And no, Novus Ordo Swiss Guard: he is not a member of the SSPX.)
The silence of the Sovereign Pontiff on defined Church teaching while permitting the Church’s resulting and continuing internal fragmentation is appalling.
And here is something else that Card. Sarah says:
“I affirm solemnly that the Church of Africa will firmly oppose every rebellion against the teaching of Christ and the Magisterium.” (same interview)
All the New Church California Catholics needed is continue to just keep their blindfolds tight and follow P Francis, Kasper, McElroy, Blair and company. Bon voyage!
So, one of our Defender-of-the-Faith types quotes HERESY from the CCC (2089) (edited for brevity), as “the denial of some truth which must be believed with divine and Catholic faith..” So, let us propose a question.
The Traditional Latin Mass according to the Denzinger Index of the Catholic Faith was divinely instituted by Christ, are we agreed? (cf. DS 1727) This was well prior to 1965, of course. (Just say “yes”, because it was.)
But we now have abundant documentary evidence that Abp. Annibale Bugnini and his advisors, including 6 Protestant observers, created the New Mass, in secret, in 1968 and duped Paul VI into believing, based on their “archeological studies of ancient rites”, that this Novus Ordo liturgy, written by men, was the Mass. (cf. M. Davies, R. Mattei, Klaus Gamber, even read Abp. Weakland’s autobiography for details). But this New Mass was created by men, not instituted by Christ. We have Rembert Weakland’s testimony to this, in his autobio, for one.
Then, are you not compelled to avoid heresy, a denial of the truth, that the N.O. Mass was and is a mere creation of man (Ratzinger himself called it a “fabrication”), and by contrast revere and respect the TLM, which alone has already been defined as having been instituted by Christ, according to the Denzinger-Schonmetzer Index of the Catholic Faith? I hope you will avoid heresy, N.O. Defenders.
Thank you, Steve Phoenix, for lending clarity with details as usual. The hysteria brigade can do nothing but get – well – hysterical it seems as they have no basis for factual understanding or any basis for the nonsense they yammer on about. (ie. The “friend” who insists she must look outside the Church for support.. And this from an “orthodox” Catholic woman who adheres to the Magisterium????.). No wonder they’d get their hackles up at someone helping with a veil and/or anything else. Such inflamed defensiveness is a sign of intense insecurity.