The following comes from a July 24 posting on the website of Crisis Magazine.
After making tens of billions in the personal computer revolution, Gates has become a full-time cheerleader for leftist causes on a global scale—whether it’s reducing carbon emissions to zero by mid-century or reducing the world population by spending billions to pay for contraceptives in poor countries.
Now Gates is hoping to transform education. The Microsoft co-founder has recently made headlines here and elsewhere for backing a new nationalized curriculum known as the Common Core. But his ambitions for education are even bigger. Gates has recently teamed up with historian David Christian to launch the Big History Project, a free online curriculum piloted last year in 55 high schools—45 in the United States, including four Catholic ones, and ten in other countries, from China to the Netherlands.
Big History lives up only to the first part of its name. It encompasses a 13.7 billion year-timeline in a bold effort to tell the entire history of the universe.
But it is not really history in any recognizable sense of the word. History traditionally takes as its starting point recorded history beginning with stories of Egyptian mummies and pyramids, or perhaps in the cradle of civilization, Mesopotamia. Big History, on the other hand, begins with the Big Bang. The ten-unit course devotes nearly half its time to covering the formation of stars and the solar system, then turns to the birth of life and the appearance of the earliest humans, before arriving at history proper, in the seventh unit. It’s tailor-made for the attention-challenged student of today, with the typical unit featuring minutes-long video lectures, interactive exercises, and floridly illustrated articles.
Big History is thus really a blend of cosmology, astrophysics, geology, evolutionary biology, and anthropology. None of these disciplines is inherently anti-faith: the Catholic Church has long taught that evolution, as a science and not a philosophy, is not incompatible with belief in God. And the Big Bang, declaring as it does that the universe had a definite beginning and therefore a cause, is rich with theistic implications. (Little wonder, then, that the first person to propose the earliest version of the Big Bang theory was a Catholic priest, Monsignor Georges Lemaitre.)
The problem arises in how these disciplines are stitched together to tell what its advocates describe as a sweeping history of everything. In the first unit of the course, students are introduced to six ancient “origin stories”: Australian aboriginal, Chinese, Greek, Iroquois, Judeo-Christian, and Mayan—in that order. For the Greek one, students read from Hesiod’s Theogony. For the Judeo-Christian perspective, they read Genesis 1.
Such “origin stories” are broached only as a foil to Big History. “Big History is a modern version of all these stories,” David Christian explains in a video introducing the course. Christian is more explicit about the secular design behind Big History in his book, Maps of Time: An Introduction to Big History. The author identifies the Christian account of creation as a “myth”:
Creation myths are powerful because they speak to our spiritual, psychic, and social need for a sense of place and a sense of belonging. Because they provide so fundamental a sense of orientation, they are often integrated into religious thinking at the deepest levels, as the Genesis story is within the Judeo-Christian-Islamic tradition. (Maps of Time, 2).
The perceived need for a modern origin story, as Christian sees it, points to the broader ambition of Big History. It is not merely an account of the origin of all things. It aims, rather, to answer the big questions of life, which, according to Christian, include the following: “Why do we find ourselves in this particular part of the universe on this tiny planet buzzing with life?” “What does it mean to be human?” “Who am I? Where do I belong? What is the totality of which I am a part?” (See his video introduction to Big History available here and Maps of Time, 1.) Such questions are normally asked and answered by a ‘worldview,’ which is what Big History ultimately is—entirely bereft, of course, of the supposedly mythic trappings of old traditions.
As such, Big History itself is the latest chapter in the decades-long story of the secularization of public education, beginning in the 1960s, when public-school prayer and Bible readings were ruled unconstitutional. In the ensuing decades, social conservatives and traditional humanists have sought other ways of helping students find their moral and metaphysical bearings as they embark upon the stormy seas of moral relativism and cultural pluralism—creationism, intelligent design, values curricula, and character education. (Some obviously have more merit than others.)
Big History is a secular counteroffensive. The curriculum provides an entirely materialist account of the origin of everything from stars to cells to cities—impersonal processes, often catalyzed by chance, brought each into being….
To read the entire story, click here.
This expansive interpretation of Big history started with H. G. Wells’s Short History of the Word. For us Catholics the most important event in history was the incarnation of God who became flesh to redeem us. Bill Gates and his nominally Catholic wife can go as far Left as afforded by their billions as they wish. The meaningful question is whether they will get into Heaven or not. Meanwhile the discoverer of the Big Bang that gave origin to the universe at one finite point in time was Mgr. George’s Lemâitre, President of the Pontifical Academy of Sciences of the Vatican. Bill Gates should not bet his abortion billions against the Catholic Church, which will outlive him and save souls.
I’m not fond of the idea that corporations or wealthy individuals should create school curricula so that kids can grow up and be wealthy like them. To that extent, I agree with Stephen Beale’s article, but pretty much nothing else. Nearly every section of Beale’s article starts with a sober observation but somehow falls into a mind-trap of paranoid delusions. A 1500 character comment can’t possibly write them all up, so let’s start with the beginning, shall we?
Beale writes that Bill Gates supports “leftist causes on a global scale.” Really? Leftism would not permit Microsoft to exist at all. There’s a big difference, invisible to Beale, between leftism and liberal capitalism.
When he writes about “myth,” Beale clearly equates “myth” with “untruth.” This is a perspective I expect to see in replies to my comment, by others who assume all statements must be either “true” or “false.” Myth, as it pertains to Big History, is a story which is not historical, but which conveys an important truth. The two incompatible stories in Genesis are both “myths.” Trusting God to have put them there for a good purpose does not require believing them to be historical.
I agree with Beale, that casting Big History as a myth based on current observations is intended to set it alongside the biblical stories. Only a paranoid would miss the obvious fact that learning to think in mythical terms is exactly what enables a mind to experience God.
Francis, you’ve flipped the context once again from religion to secular. Don’t you get bored with doing that?
A statement is either true or false. A so called “half truth” means that there is more than one subject. In the immortal words of Malcom Muggeridge, “I either had eggs for breakfast today or I didn’t”. The idea that something can be both true and false is an Eastern invention.
John:
“A statement is either true or false” has many counterexamples, the classic one being “this statement is false.”
The following famous quote is credited as inspiring some of the thinkers who contributed to “big history,” and it is not from any eastern tradition. There are many more quotes like it. It contains a series of statements. In your estimation, which ones are are true and which are false?
I entered into unknowing,
and there I remained unknowing
transcending all knowledge.
I entered into unknowing,
yet when I saw myself there,
without knowing where I was,
I understood great things;
I will not say what I felt
for I remained in unknowing
transcending all knowledge.
That perfect knowledge
was of peace and holiness
held at no remove
in profound solitude;
it was something so secret
that I was left stammering,
transcending all knowledge.
I was so ‘whelmed,
so absorbed and withdrawn,
that my senses were left
deprived of all their sensing,
and my spirit was given
an understanding while not understanding,
transcending all knowledge.
He who truly arrives there
cuts free from himself;
all that he knew before
now seems worthless,
and his knowledge so soars
that he is left in unknowing
transcending all knowledge.
The higher he ascends
the less he understands,
because the cloud is dark
which lit up the night;
whoever knows this
remains always in unknowing
transcending all knowledge.
This knowledge in unknowing
is so overwhelming
that wise men disputing
can never overthrow it,
for their knowledge does not reach
to the understanding of not
understanding,
transcending all knowledge.
And this supreme knowledge
is so exalted
that no power of man or learning
can grasp it;
he who masters himself
will, with knowledge in
unknowing,
always be transcending.
And if you should want to hear:
this highest knowledge lies
in the loftiest sense
of the essence of God;
this is a work of his mercy,
to leave one without
understanding,
transcending all knowledge.
Francis, I repeat a statement is either true or false. Verbosity doesn’t change that!
OK, then is “This statement is false” a true or a false statement?
“… outside agents, such as God or Satan,…” [in the full article] This comes close to the core of my problem with Beale’s worldview. He seems to believe in a Wahabi kind of God who is an “outside agent” and another outside agent called “Satan” elevated to a kind of anti-God. This is completely different from a triune God who is both incarnate and transcendent.
Francis, “This statement is false” is not a statement because there is no statement. What are you going to come up with next. Can God make a mountain so big he can’t push it?
John:
What, then, is a statement? I think your example of a neither-true-nor-false statement, “God can make a mountain so big he can’t push it” is more relevant than mine. Is that not a statement, either?
The original point here is that equating “myth” with “untruth” is what seems to be the problem behind recognizing biblical creation stories as creation myths. A myth is neither historically “true” nor “untrue” because its truth is not about history. It is somewhat like “love” is neither red nor green.
This ‘really-soft’ Pogrom is in line with the Orweiilan ‘Newspeak’ that is now the answer to ‘Thought-Crime’ in CA Schools, and which mandates only a carefully sanitized and manicured Hyrstory – absent the politically ‘Un-Good’ parts, which only detract from the mission.
Senator Mark “Kiddie Porn King” Leno sponsored SB#48 (subject of a failed recall petition, which the Catholic Church in Ca I observed – failed to support) – which provides for Draconian Thought / Hyrstorical Cleansing of the ‘curriculum’ – to push amongst other items the coprophile agenda up the public wazoo – “Whether You Like It or Not”!.
Not since the days of revisionist coverups for the purges of the old Evil Soviet Empire, have the text books been so revolutionized, literally.
Given that support for and spread of the Catechism and Magisterium are likely to be ‘disfavored’ under the new 4th Reich (if not cause for imprisonment) of the Abomination, those planning for the future of Catholic Education should try to measure the cost in political indoctrination / censorship that now comes with Caesar’s Coin:
…………………………………………………………..
SECTION 1. Section 51204.5 of the Education Code is amended to
read:
51204.5. Instruction in social sciences shall include the early
history of California and a study of the role and contributions of
both men and women, Native Americans, African Americans, Mexican
Americans, Asian Americans, Pacific Islanders, European Americans,
lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender Americans, persons with
disabilities, and members of other ethnic and cultural groups, to the
economic, political, and social development of California and the
United States of America, with particular emphasis on portraying the
role of these groups in contemporary society.
SEC. 2. Section 51500 of the Education Code is amended to read:
51500. A teacher shall not give instruction and a school district
shall not sponsor any activity that promotes a discriminatory bias
on the basis of race or ethnicity, gender, religion, disability,
nationality, sexual orientation, or because of a characteristic
listed in Section 220.
SEC. 3. Section 51501 of the Education Code is amended to read:
51501. The state board and any governing board
hall not adopt
any textbooks or other instructional materials for use in the public
schools
that contain any matter reflecting adversely upon persons on
the basis of race or ethnicity, gender, religion, disability,
nationality,
sexual orientation, or because of a characteristic listed in Section 220.
SEC. 4. Section 60040 of the Education Code is amended to read:
60040. When adopting instructional materials for use in the
schools, governing boards shall include only instructional materials
which, in their determination, accurately portray the cultural and
racial diversity of our society, including:
(a) The contributions of both men and women in all types of roles,
including professional, vocational, and executive roles.
(b) The role and contributions of Native Americans, African
Americans, Mexican Americans, Asian Americans, Pacific Islanders,
European Americans,
lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender
Americans, persons with disabilities, and members of other ethnic and
cultural groups to the total development of California and the
United States.
(c) The role and contributions of the entrepreneur and labor in
the total development of California and the United States.
SEC. 5. Section 60044 of the Education Code is amended to read:
60044. A governing board shall not adopt any instructional
materials for use in the schools that, in its determination, contain:
(a) Any matter reflecting adversely upon
persons on the basis of
race or ethnicity, gender, religion, disability, nationality, sexual
orientation, occupation, or because of a characteristic listed in
Section 220.
(b) Any sectarian or denominational doctrine or propaganda
contrary to law.
SEC. 6. It is the intent of the Legislature that alternative and
charter schools take notice
of the provisions of this act in light of
Section 235 of the Education Code, which prohibits discrimination on
the basis of disability, gender, nationality, race or ethnicity,
religion, sexual orientation, or other specified characteristics in
any aspect of the operation of alternative and charter schools.
Michael:
You have a lot to say about a misguided bill that was introduced more than two years ago and failed to get support, even in the Democrat-controlled CA legislature. The bill is already in history’s dustbin, and is only remotely relevant to the article. Why do you think we ought to read it again?
I’m sure you have something to say that’s relevant to the topic. Can you outline what that might be in 1500 characters or less?
Apologies to Michael:
I am embarrassed because I confused this bill with a different one, and I regret that this is the one that was signed into law two years ago. It is hard to believe how dumb political correctness and fights over textbooks can get!
Still, “Big History” isn’t particularly “revisionist” so much as its own topic. I hope you will comment on the actual content of the material that’s publicly available.
Francis – I don’t know where you get your information about SB #48, but mine says it was signed and incorporated in to State Law and directly controls all who take Caesar’s Coin (tax money). Hence I ask that you please review the following and explain my misunderstanding:
BILL NUMBER: SB 48 CHAPTERED
CHAPTER 81
FILED WITH SECRETARY OF STATE JULY 14, 2011
APPROVED BY GOVERNOR JULY 13, 2011
PASSED THE SENATE APRIL 14, 2011
PASSED THE ASSEMBLY JULY 5, 2011
AMENDED IN SENATE MARCH 29, 2011
INTRODUCED BY Senator Leno
(Principal coauthor: Senator Kehoe)
(Principal coauthors: Assembly Members Ammiano, Atkins, Gordon,
and Lara)
(Coauthors: Senators Alquist, Hancock, Lowenthal, Pavley, Price,
and Yee)
(Coauthors: Assembly Members Allen, Blumenfield, Fong, Galgiani,
Hayashi, Huffman, Bonnie Lowenthal, Mendoza, Portantino, and Yamada)
DECEMBER 13, 2010
An act to amend Sections 51204.5, 51500, 51501, 60040, and 60044
of the Education Code, relating to instruction.
LEGISLATIVE COUNSEL’S DIGEST
SB 48, Leno. Pupil instruction: prohibition of discriminatory
content… prohibits
the State Board of Education and the governing board of any school
district from adopting textbooks or other instructional materials
that contain any matter that reflects adversely …
Wow! what the heck can they teach then? This amoral idiot Leno is trying to tie the hands of anyone who really wants to teach.
Notice how he always throws in the unnatural sodomites with the other natural groups!
May God have mercy on Demoncrat Tax-ifornia!
Viva Cristo Rey!
God bless, yours in Their Hearts,
Kenneth M. Fisher
I read the entire article. It is well presented and well argued. There is an old saying that history is written by the victors. This is usually true. Lately, however, history is what people can get into the textbooks. I taught history back in the early 60’s. I recently reviewed a history text book currently used in junior high schools. I hardly recognized what it was about. So many special interest groups have had their hands in the writing of California and Texas school books, that it is now a very different history story. Textbook companies can’t afford to rewrite all of their books for each state, so other states pretty much use whatever California and Texas use. So, the history learned in current high schools, Catholic or Public, will be what Bill Gates wants them to learn because he can fund the project. It is a bit scary to say the least.
Bob One – You make a fundamental mistake of the ‘paper’ generation when you say: ” Textbook companies can’t afford to rewrite all of their books for each state, so other states pretty much use whatever California and Texas use,,,”
I submit that with Tablets the need for students bent over with back breaking backpacks full of material whose gravitas is dubious at best, will greatly reduce itself, and the corresponding cost in human lives & suffering resultant.
This format also lends to Generic materials that can be easily supplemented – electronically, either through incorporation of simply hyper links to a core database. The programs also help bifurcate Teacher Instruction from class oversight / babysitting – and let students proceed at a pace that suits them, so long as they make it through the lessons.
Hence – Textbooks will become E-Documents that are amenable to editing, in ways that the old printed dinosaurs could never approach.
However, like most ‘advances’ in this age of Abomination – such power can be used for good or evil.
I submit that the Church now has the Data Base itself to produce all these type materials for its schools, and distribute a uniformly Catechism friendly catalog of material in a format that is far cheaper and easier to carry around than the ‘ole ball & chain’ backpack.
Chiropractors may object, but if you have ever seen school kids schlepping huge academic camel humps of textbooks around – your sympathy cannot be withheld.
As a teacher myself (of science) and with a fondness of looking at older science and other texts, I find some of the biases in older works quite surprising. Older US history books glorified an Anglo-Protestant Whig view of American history, with cursory attention to the roles of France and Spain, and treated many controversial topics too gently (e.g. the labor movement, US entry into WWI, opposition to FDR). “Political correctness” and the attempt to strong-arm the teaching of history into whatever society considers virtue (whether nationalism or poly-sexualism or globalism) is an old problem. Keeping all bias out is probably not humanly possible, but governments, businessmen and political activists should not be writing our kids schoolbooks.
Bob One: An answer to the problem of textbook companies you mentioned: write our own on-line programs from primary sources. You’d have plenty of Catholic scholars who could help.
Somebody has to pay for writing and publishing the history books … teachers cannot do this, and so the ultimate benefactor is the govt, by laundering money through the business sector.
Or through the bishops’ sector.
I agree. Tom and Michael are hitting on a key issue. Some Catholic schools are giving students pads. With that in their hands they have all of the world’s information in their hands. The problem, may be the ability of the church to move quickly or the teachers being willing to learn to teach differently. We know, for instance, that kids learn better if you give them what they now do in class as homework, and do in class what we currently call homework. In other words, use homework for the learning process and classroom time for individual practice time. Studies show it works. A church(evangelical) is now investing $20mm for an app that has the Bible in several translations, along with a bunch of other stuff that is free to anyone to put on their phones or pads. Why isn’t the catechism on the pad or phone? Standard prayers? Worship aids? Etc. We can’t move in centuries as in the past. Look at the Pope. He is the number 2 person being followed on twitter. How many parish priest have twitter accounts and use them? How many of our Bishops are blogging from Rio this week? Good points folks.
Priests need to be praying hard and making personal sacrifices for their flock, as one can talk a lot, but if their liturgy is his playground, it will get nowhere. Also, we are dealing more with powers, principalities, etc. of Hell than before and you can’t solve all problems with talk and solving individuals’ issues blocking them from accepting The Faith. Fasting, prayer and penances are most needed, but a pope leading a simple lifestyle is a plus, but many will still never accept even that as a heart changer, as they know what Christ really said and hate it and will hate us for reminding them. Besides, the Pope probably has someone posting most Twitter things for him.
There are govt standardized tests that the kids have to pass to transition through certain grade levels and to graduate.
“pads. With that in their hands they have all of the world’s information in their hands…”
Based on the time honored principle of “GIGO” (Garbage in = Garbage Out) you have hit upon what is both an academic / social blessing and a curse – for what the internet giveth (like access to every kind of porn and degradation imaginable, and some I don’t even care to think of), so too does it dump huge quantities of said garbage in super abundance.
Unfortunately – while most students will use their pads for goodness and niceness, some play hooky in class and go surfing, with the contest to see who can gross out their classmates with the most shudder inducing find.
PTSD has many grades of effect, and the shaking of the brain does not always have to be physical to cause lasting harm – as even witnesses to ugliness can be traumatized for long afterwards.
Sooo…. Access to the world of information is a two direction internet highway (And data collection about the young user by a system that never forgets), and schools are also struggling with keeping the types of filth that Gates and his backers push for profit – out of their systems.
An example of the Political Censorship that pervades modern Academentia & Hollywierd (even the History / Military Channels – which are ever more edited to conform to leftist controlled propaganda than admitted ‘fiction’) – is almost complete blackout of any mention of the founder and leader of the Nazi Movement – the boy raping homo-anal coprophile pederast Ernst Rohm.
After the purge between homosex factions for control of the party in 1934 – ‘The Night of the Long Knives’ – Rohm and his Pederast comrades in the Storm Trooper Leadership were first assassinated and then edited out of the history by propaganda minister Goebbels.
Indeed, even the popular Reifenstahl propaganda movie (Triumph of Belief) showing Rohn and Hitler as Equals was Recalled and Destroyed; being replaced by a new movie (Triumph of the Will -= still discussed in film classes as early ‘feminist’ directing) showing Rohm’s syphilitic prostitute protege Hitler as sole leader of Der Volk.
Modern Media / Adacementia still play in to this propaganda scam, decades after it was de-bunked and the truth outed about Rohm & Hitler and their Pederast Posse. For example, the ‘Military Channel’ still tries to present a depraved homo-anal Coprophile like Hitler as ‘heterosexual’…
– Using the same ‘Beard’ of Eva Braun as his purported ‘Heterosexual Mistress / Wife’ – when the facts show Braun was never more than window dressing for the inner circle to spread the word that the leader was ‘normal ‘, even though they all knew that Hitler had been “Rohm’s boy” for decades.
This type of Central Historical Fact to understanding one of the great tragedies of modern history, is precisely what todays Gaystapo Thought Police want Suppressed, just like the good ole days of the prior Reich – before the advent of this New Age of Abomination.
Have they come up with Ubersexual yet? Just wondering.
Michael: One comment jolted my memory of the 1934 assassination of the homosexual members of the SA, including Ernst Roehm. The party may have tried to air-brush this event (the night of the long knives) out of the written history, but it was a topic of discussion in Germany throughout the 1930’s, where I learned of this atrocity from my own mother. Thanks for reminding me!
Michael McDermott, one fact that was also washed from history until recently was that the man who very well might be responsible for the defeat of hitler was also a homosexual. Alan Turing was the most important member of the team that broke the German Enigma code, and he is widely credited with being the father of the computer. He was tried and convicted of homosexuality and elected chemical castration as his punishment. He was told it was reversible and temporary, was never told of its side affects, and ended up committing suicide as a result. This month, the British government offerred an official apology for the way they treated him.
It is quite possible that everyone who reads this owes their freedom to this homosexual. And it is most certainly true that everyone who reads this owes a debt of thanks to the homosexual who invented the computer.
I’ve complained about Common Core often for so many different reasons and I’ve looked at the curriculum of different schools that aren’t part of the mainstream Catholic diocesan systems and found that religion, languages and literature are far more important in comparison (NAPCIS and a Norbertine school). Diocesan education departments don’t want to discuss these types of things because they feel they are “too much” for students and they don’t want to give up the touchy-feeling and social justice nonsense.
So enthralled by the Gates’ starting Common Core and Big History, there is a similar component for math and science called CMAST that seems to follow the video-heavy format and its lack of depth. (Let’s not talk about grading…)
This is what we have become, a bunch of zombies (a TV favorite subject) in front of a computer screen…. (“Why teach multiplication tables when students can look them up on-line? Why memorize ‘long’ Catholic prayers when you can look them up on-line? – Actually heard from a Catholic administrator.)
This all gets back to PARENTS being actively and publically involved in the education of their Children, rather than leaving it to others.
Just because a school is advertised as “Catholic” or “Public” does not make it good.
horough investigation and constant/continued monitoring is required.
CCC: ” 2229 As those first responsible for the education of their children, parents have the right to choose a school for them which corresponds to their own convictions. This right is fundamental. As far as possible parents have the duty of choosing schools that will best help them in their task as Christian educators. Public authorities have the duty of guaranteeing this parental right and of ensuring the concrete conditions for its exercise. ”
CCC: ” 2252 Parents have the first responsibility for the education of their children in the faith, prayer, and all the virtues. They have the duty to provide as far as possible for the physical and spiritual needs of their children.”
At death, we Parents will all be ‘judged’ on the job that we do with our Children.
Bill Gates, George Soros, and others have no business in “SOCIAL ENGINEERING” – the brainwashing of children and others to suit their own political agenda. Then politicians who agree with these billionaires get elected by the upcoming generation as taught in the schools.
If you haven’t read it lately, try: “1984” by George Orwell.
(Beware of electronic books. They can easily be changed.)
As a lover of sci-fi, fairy tales, etc., I find it very amusing that “educated” people can fall for the nonsense of evolution, very old creation (of which none of them can make up their minds on how old), global warming and unfounded “myths” in God’s Holy Word: the Bible. Evolution is calling God a LIAR, plain and simple, as His Word, the Bible, is very clear about creation and life, which is why after over 150 years, nobody can come up with one piece of evidence and there isn’t any proof of a very old world, as they want us to fall for. Bill Gates has done more harm then good and we now have a generation of children that only survive on the batteries for their electronic junk. Hate to see what the next generation will bring us, if God allows this evil to continue. +JMJ+
JMJ:
“…the Bible, is very clear about creation and life…” Have you ever compared the two different creation stories in Genesis? 1:27 says God created men and women on the 6th day. Chapter 2 is the Garden of Eden story, wherein God created one man, then later created one woman from his rib on a different day. If you try to understand this in a materialistic way, the two stories are factually different. I am curious, how you can consider this “very clear” yet the plain archeological evidence that species and ecosystems evolve with time is “nonsense.”
It is not right to conclude God is a liar if the stories don’t agree with each other (which they don’t) or if the stories don’t fit obeservations (which they don’t). God could be telling you something you haven’t quite understood yet. Nor is it right to conclude God is a deciever if He deliberately planted fossils in the earth to make it look as if species and ecosystems evolve with time. [Important note here: I haven’t said anything about how species and ecosystems evolve with time; the argument over whether variation and selection or some other process drives evolution is a different argument than whether change with time is real or not.]
I’m curious: How do you come to the conclusion that the bible must be materialistically and historically factual, but observable facts discovered by the sciences and acknowledged by the Church are not?
Francis, Skai already explained it to you. It’s called gene pooling. We can all go home now and pretend there is one single consistent creation story and that gene pooling explains the rest. Right Skai? Just Google it, its’ right there in the wikipediaspheregoogleopolis!
YFC, why do you dig your stupid hole deeper and deeper? Gene pooling is observable, and is not evolution which is not observable. Gene pooling is simple to understand, for example dog breeding, livestock breeding … I have a dog from a line which was intentionally bred off the Labrador Retriever breed (note that all dog breeds are the same species) and into a line of its own, a specialty sub-breed you could call it. Now, getting down to the nitty gritty, at least getting towards the down of it, we read about Noah’s three sons: Each wandered off in different directions, to become differentiated by different features, traits, languages, cultures … gene pooling, yet these lines are the same species. There is no evolution that can be observed in this at all. Yet, also there are skeletal remains from human like creatures which are different species and even different genera. It is speculation that the more remote in time (geological time, a construct that is not proven but only evidenced) genera led genetically to what we call the Neanderthal/Sapiens species. Geneticists have found neanderthal genes in modern man, and thus our species includes both; thus, Homo sapiens neanderthal and Homo sapiens sapiens. The same species includes Neanderthal and Modern man. Anyone who has studied it a bit can see neanderthal traits all over the place. In fact the so called predecessor, one click back is called the same genus but different species, Homo erectus, and these features can also be seen in modern man. This can all be explained by gene pooling and does not need evolution to explain it. The hard core evolutionists also are hostile to Salvation history: Why? Because they have rejected God and made up their own belief system to suit their every desires.
Francis, your criticism of the “materialistic and historical” interpretation of Genesis is valid, but does not rely on your assumption that evolution is involved. In fact, you contradict yourself by denying what you call an historical development and replacing it with a pre-historical development: Can you see the problem with your use of time and chronology? If not, then the key is your concept of time. You do not really know what “drives” time, what time is … Because you do not know, it is then easy to blow your evolution theories and hypotheses out of the water. A few years ago I got involved in a blog on evolution vs creation on some science site I think it was Reuters or some such publication. Every single argument for evolution was brought forward, and defeated by yours truly, and by an occasional blog by one or several actual scientists. I can do this because I understand the notion of “time”. Most people beat their heads against the wall trying to get it. Many who do “get it” yet do not understand the significance of it and thus cannot use it in an argument. So, Francis, go ahead, make my day … but how sure are you that you counted right? How many time bullets are left in my logic arsenal? Or could it be infinite? If infinite, then evolution has no chance, not even a prayer because evolution is finite. Now, at this point in the situation, Francis, there are two paths open to an argument. To choose the path of life, you have to determine whether to go with God never changes, or God changes. Take your best shot. But you can also choose to babble, because few readers can deal with this type of information since it is mind boggling. The key for those who would try is material and immaterial, and how you can discern the difference.
Skai:
I have no doubt at all that your special understanding of “time” enables you to defeat the arguments of even the greatest Nobel Laureates and Zen masters. It’s a good thing I have my space shields on, to deflect the time bullets in your arsenal. I’m just hoping my dilithium crystals don’t melt as I accelerate chronologically through the space-time continuum toward the omega point, divinely mutating quantum left and creating ex nihilo omnia hyperdimensionally right.
Francis, ROTFL. for the first time on CCD. THank you.
But seriously now, you know all it takes to enter into the Skai time dimension is sufficient popcorn and beer, right?
Skai, the only reason you “defeated” every argument for evolution is because you’re the one who was judging the results.
I’m sure a lot of psych ward residents win every argument they have as well.
Wow, Skai. I can say nothing, I must only bow to your eloquence.
Whatever it means.
Actually, I have always wondered about the dating process used to determine how old the earth is now. What is to say the process could not have been speeded up because of some reason or condition. Paint on a house is supposed to last a certain length of the time, but under certain conditions it can last a much shorter time or a much longer one. How do we know that there was not some condition involved that we do not now know about that God could have used to speed up the process of creation? I have learned over the years that what science tells one is correct in one decade, can be completely different in another. Some things are scientific facts and others are just speculation.
Anne:
Regarding the age of the Earth, you can find a nice web page on the topic by searching for “Honors Seminar (UHON 390)” by Timothy Heaton.
He has references both to scientific clocks and to clocks preferred by “young Earth” creationists.
The “young Earth” clocks are bogus.
I don’t care if a priest came up with The Big Bang, if it has holes in it, it doesn’t stand to reason or faith, as God is one of truth. It doesn’t mean it didn’t happen, but has no business being, practically, a dogma. What do we know of this priest, anyway? If he’s a deChardin type, a Card. Roger Mahoney or Fr. Phlaeger-type, I think his theory needs heavy skepticism. Compromises will be made in the last days. BTW Islam and Masons think in centuries, but centuries ahead, based on historic and/or occultic dates. Maybe we should plan ahead, like for a time when we’ll be persecuted and get prepared and others prepared, spiritually, for it. Not upsetting Muslims, Protestants, Jews or academia, so they don’t persecute their flock, is a bad pastoral plan for the clergy to take with us. We’ve gotten too comfortable with being somewhat liked and prefer too much to keep it that way. Just being nice to others and helping those in need is all the ecumenism we need. Scrap interreligious prayer as lex orandi; lex credendi. The Jews tried it when they crossed the Jordan and forgot the difference or why they should care.
Twysted Syster Resistance Movement
I am forming a Twysted Syster Resistance Movement – in response to the “Sister’s Resistance” portrayed on CBS ’60-Minutes’ tv show on Sunday July 27 2013 (about 10 minutes ago as this is written).
Curiously enough the spot trashing the Church and the Male Pigs who run it ran just ahead of another segment – showing Bill Gates as the Global Santa Claus of the new age. Bill is brilliantly wealthy despite having done little more than sell someone else’s wonky ‘kludge works ‘to clueless IBM Execs, and coast from there on (an Apple User speaking here, though Not defending steve jobs or his followers)
For those who missed it – CBS did another down and dirty hit piece on the Catholic Church and “The Boys” (complete with repeat flogging of the Homosex Abuse Scandal – without mentioning it was Homosex infiltrators mostly responsible) – Featuring the Twysted Systers of perpetual lavender resistance to the hated patriarchy…
Or as they are styled by their lamesteam media sponsors – ‘nunz in on and anywhere but Under the Bus’, which is where they want to throw the “Boys” as retribution.
Indeed – one purple robed Mau Mau Artiste (who thinks that Works Alone provide an Excuse for Anti Catholic Heresy financed by the Faithful in the pews)…
– Said that after their support for Barry (Soetoro / Marshall Davis / ObamAcorn… Whoever the guy really is) in the election, and appearing in public to chastise the Male Bishops over Soetoro’s HHS Mandates, the only problem with promoting this Abomination was that:
“The Girls Won and the Boys are mad”.
Which I think pretty much sums up the whole underpinning of their ‘theological’ agenda of Anti-Male Hate (dare I cal it Misandry) – simply revenge against the Pigs and a determination to do as much damage to the hated ‘Patriarchy’ as they can – BAMN, By Any Means Necessary.
Indeed – when a Twysted Syster is asked about Not liking being told by Men to Adhere to the Actual Teachings of the Church they profess ‘obedience’ to, she replies that “We never liked any men telling us what to do.” wink wink, where is my purple sweater… Ahem.
However – like the Gaystapo who pretty much split the Episcopals along the lines of their ‘gay genes’ (the Gaystapo got the building and bank account and empty pews, and the congregation meets under a tarp in a parking lot), these Systers seem to be far more interested in keeping Inside the Sunday Collection Pipeline than striking out on their own.
After all – It is a ‘free’ country, and they can quit pretending to be Catholic and finally come out of the closet as the True Radical Gender Feminist MIsandrists we all know them to be, which is just fine with the Abomination, so long as the money keeps coming in.
They can even go out and get a soap box and see if they can attract more than flies with their Misandrist ‘Sir-moans’, if they truly believe that they are superior, even if the only habits they display are bad ones.
But really Sys – time to drop the Liberace Drag Facade and really face up to the question of “Who I Am” – which is to say an Anti-Catholic Misandrist Bigot.
BTW – Lets all write CBS and ask them to do a similarly insightful investigation in to the Larry Brinkin Racist Homo-Anal Toddler Boy Rape Ring, run out of the ‘in-human rights’ comm in Frisco, bet they’d get right on that piece, even though it is Over a year old now.
Leading California gay rights leader arrested over child porn possession
https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/leading-california-gay-rights-leader-arrested-over-child-porn-possession?
https://townhall.com/columnists/michaelbrown/2012/07/09/ted_haggard_larry_brinkin_and_glaring_media_bias/page/full/
“NO SHAME” https://cal-catholic.com/wordpress/2012/06/27/no-shame/
Here is a group of people working to combat the influence of the excreable Mr. Gates and others, and make a real difference in the education of our youth, by producing high quality Catholic textbooks. http://www.catholictextbookproject.com
Brian – I went to the site and looked around – the last update I saw was 2004. Do you have any updates on the project, particularly ‘E’ ing it?
https://catholictextbooks.blogspot.com/
Here is some recent blog activity from the site. Order here!
https://cstp.myshopify.com/
Also, there is an opportunity to fight Gates at his own game and buy books for schools on the site.
Not everything in the first chapter of Genesis is meant to be taken absolutely literally as it says God made the sun on the third day. We moderns determine a twenty-four hour day by the sun. St. Augustine and other early Saints knew that, and mentioned it. The number three and many other numbers in the Bible had a symbolism. Just how long was that “day” and how long was it from the first “day” to the third “day”? Were they twenty-four hour days? Probably not. Genesis is a poetic form, some use the term myth, of telling what really happened. Could God have made the universe in six literally days? Surely he could have, but did he? We really do not know at this point. Nevertheless, one member of my family is teaching her two to four-year olds what I think is called classical history. They are studying ancient Egypt and ancient history now, and all from a Christian persepective. She does not want others demanding what her children be taught without her and her husband’s approval. The point of the whole story in the first part of Genesis is that God made man and woman from a first couple and all living things and the universe and that humans fell from grace through sin. At this point the Church does not demand that everything in it be taken literally, but it does not forbid that either. Quite frankly, I think the evolution of man has a lot of holes in it. Where are the multitude of missing links that we should be able to find, and why do some people (some Northern Europeans, Basques of France and Spain, Berbers of Africa, etc.) have RH negative bloods types when most of the world’s population (85%) have RH positive blood types. The RH negative do not have the same rhesus monkey factor in their blood as RH postitive people do. What happened to them? There is a lot to explain.
She is combining this “classical” history with definite Catholic history, of course.
Anne, it’s called mutation. It happens naturally as a result of mistakes in DNA replication, ionizing radiation, and sometimes, via viral insertions. Every person has millions of mutations that distinguish them from an “average” human, but almost all of them are inconsequential. The Human Genome Project used these “silent” mutations to map the genome before it could be sequenced base pair by base pair. And before we get sidetracked by another commenter, all of these genetic mutations sit within the human gene pool, but no, they are not known to hang out and pool with each other.
Not only is there no abundance of “missing links”, there is not a single missing link … no missing link is known to exist. Oh I forgot, there is one missing link, the CCC2ndEd. Other than this, there is no missing link, none at all.
Mutation within a species is something quite different from the Origin of the Species- which is what Darwin incorrectly (foolishly – or a marketing tool) titled his Book. Darwin actually avoids the Metaphysical issues related to the Origin of Life & Existence – Infinity, Eternity (all that Pre-Big-Bang stuff)… Which Even Darwin still gave over as the province of God.
Darwin was also only discussing observations made without an understanding of (DNA, micro-biology… ) – and questions of Complexity they provide that cannot be reduced were not part of the Original Study. I particularly like the critique made in the book “Tornado in a Junkyard” by Perloff – which helps highlight some of the Assumptions that most Darwinists try to avoid or gloss over.
BTW – the Scopes ‘monkey trial’ gets a great treatment, as the Teacher Accused of teaching evolution never actually did so (he was a substitute, who avoided the topic that day) – but uber-lawyer Clarence Darrow nonetheless Pled Him Guilty.
Darrow had done a ‘von-wanker’ and pulled a show trial for political purposes, in which he savaged the opposition with cross examination – but folded his tent before it was his turn to answer any of the opponents questions, and pled Scopes guilty for the publicity it provided.
Clarence Darrow committed the worst kind of legal malpractice – Pled a Client Guilty to a charge that was false and easily disproven – so as to make himself famous and rich by winning the big case in the press – if not the court.
As for the subject of Genesis; the Bible is Not a Scientific Text book, and the Truth contained therein is a succinct Metaphor for God’s Creation, every bit as valid as a blackboard full of mathematical equations explaining planetary orbits, although it provides Understanding of a different and far more comprehensive form.
*Think of the study of the chemistry of water – versus diving in to a waterfall pool or the Ocean… Which provides a better Understanding of Water?
The problem for many in the Darwin & Science vs. the Bible & Faith debate, is the notion that both God /Faith & Science / Reason are mutually exclusive, particularly when using human observers like Heisenberg as the judges of objective reality – which they claim the observer changes anyway.
Galileo himself may have disproved that the Sun revolved around the Earth, but he also claimed the Sun was the Center of the Universe.
That too was later corrected by scientific observation, but Galileo’s statement that “Mathematics is the language with which God has written the universe” remains just as true today; but itself is a Metaphor for the wonder of creation and what has been termed the “unreasonable effectiveness of mathematics”.
The argument between Religion & Science seems to often revolve around the issue of what I call ‘Metaphysical Boot-Strapping’ – which is kind of like using God as a ‘fudge factor’ in an equation so as to make it work – without doing the necessary background science to prove the actual nature of God’s Creation.
The attempt by everyone from Students to Professors to Preachers, to discuss God’s Science without doing their homework to understand such – and taking the easy way out by shifting the blame for their laziness to ‘God’s Will”…
Has disgraced more than a few ‘scholars’ – and some not so scholarly. However, it does not effect God’s Creation or the Science that helps explain it -in some aspects, but Not All.
**BTW – Did I actually see a Display Case outside a science class at Holy Names College holding a replica of “Piltdown Man” as an example of Evolution?
Anybody out there in Katholic Kollege know who Piltdown Man Was, or Wasn’t???
McD: A. Piltdown Man was later shown to be the remains of Charles Darwin, B. Now, not so fast McD, when you say “but he also claimed the Sun was the Center of the Universe. That too was later corrected by scientific observation”: Because, it is impossible to scientifically determine where the center of the universe is located. Try these possibilities: 1. Jerusalem is the center, 2. Rome is the center, 3. God is the center. So, with this in mind, and the mind performing a few acrobatic maneuvers … coupled with the belief machine in the soul, and the union with God through the Holy Eucharist taken in good faith … Faith trumps science precisely at the point where man wonders about the center of the universe. I’m leaving this question hanging, because only those who will be able to grasp it will be able to get it anyway if … if … they give it a shot. And yes, as far as I know, I just discovered this. But it is possible that somewhere in my reading, studying, reflecting background of more than a half century I ran across it. In any case, for those who are argument challenged, you are seeing the process of scientific discovery before your very eyes. Keep this in mind next time you fancy that your regurgitational methods have any real punch to them.
I counted 222 words, but have it copied and on standby in case I need to repost in two segments or pare it down :)
Ah, Skai, better 222 words than 666 words…
Prophetic words, Sam … what with some of the people I interact with!!! The Great Commission gets both easier and harder with every prayer.
With regards to your post of August 1, 2013 at 8:50 am: Two different computer programs have given me a word count of 231 words. ( I am not interested in doing a word count by hand. ) I think some of the difference can be attributed what these programs consider to be a “word”. It appears that one or more characters that are surrounded by white space counts as a word. For example: the, car, A., 1., and … all count as words. If I subtract McD:, A., B., 1., 2., 3., and the four instances of … from the word count of 231, I can arrive at a word count that is pretty close to yours. Keep this in mind in case a comment does not make it through and you were pretty sure you did not exceed the word limit, because a computer program might not see it that way. If I was the one who had to moderate these comments, I certainly would not want to do a word count by hand. I find many of them to be boring enough already. I pity the people who carry such a large burden. May the God of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob bless you with eternal possessions. May your flocks increase and your descendants be as numerous as the stars in the sky. ( I have been reading the Old Testament lately. )
Oopps, I should have did a word count on my comment before sending it. I did not realize it was that long until I saw it appear on screen with the following text: Your comment is awaiting moderation. I am not into writing lengthy stuff and did not think that I could exceed the word limit. My bad. Can I take it back?