The following comes from a June 29 posting by Msgr. Charles Pope on the website of the Washington D.C. archdiocese.
There has been some interesting coverage in the news recently regarding the Church’s stance on baptizing children conceived or reared in irregular situations.
In recent decades there has been an explosion in the number of children conceived and born outside of Holy Matrimony. The general approach of the Church has been to baptize these children as long as there is no evidence of an ongoing rejection of the Church teaching that sexual intimacy is reserved for marriage. While people may have fallen in weakness, the presumption was that they at least accepted the norm and were going to try to live by it.
If the “couple” in question were living together outside of marriage, the baptism was handled discreetly and the couple was counseled to cease fornication.
It is not certain that every pastor admonished couples as he should but this was (and is) the general policy.
Enter the new and ever more frequent problem of same sex “couples” presenting a child for baptism, and now the stakes get higher. Why? Because of the visibility of the sin involved. At the baptism ceremony, one can at least presume that a single mother has repented of fornication. But it is hard to presume that a homosexual “couple” living together openly, in a culture that has suddenly decided to “celebrate” their “lifestyle,” is making a similar admission of the wrongness of their past behavior. It is also difficult to presume that many who attend the baptism have clarity on the aberrance of homosexual acts.
Thus the Church finds herself in a deeper quandary regarding how to baptize children being brought up in irregular situations that are far more public, situations that bespeak acceptance and even celebration of something the Church must oppose.
Discretion is the operative word. We still have every reason try to baptize children in these irregular situations; after all, it is not the fault of the child. However we must balance the common good of avoiding scandal with the individual good of each child by seeking to handle these baptisms discreetly, giving no opportunity for public confusion regarding what we must reasonably and biblically oppose (same-sex unions).
Here are some excerpts from an article that was in the Washington Post this past Saturday along with my comments in [underlined] text. (The full text of the article is here: New Battleground?.)
… [But a] new debate was prompted by the emergence of a memo—first reported by the Wisconsin State Journal—that was sent in early May to priests of the Madison Diocese by the top aide to Bishop Robert Morlino. In the memo, the vicar general of the diocese, Monsignor James Bartylla, says there are “a plethora of difficulties, challenges, and considerations associated with these unnatural unions (including scandal) linked with the baptism of a child, and such considerations touch upon theology, canon law, pastoral approach, liturgical adaptation, and sacramental recording.”
Yes, they are unnatural unions and present a host of difficulties to us. Even in the “single mother” scenarios that have recently troubled us, comes the listing of a “father” who is often absent or sometimes even unknown. I have often had to struggle with a woman who either did not want to disclose the father or did not even know who the father was. There is always the option of writing Pater ignotus (father unknown) in the baptismal register, but it is generally desirable to indicate the biological father if he can be known. But at least the mother was known. Members of so called “gay” couples do not fit on either line. Which do we list? Who is the father? Who is the mother? It’s a mess. Further, the rites call for a blessing for mother and father. What do we do? What do we say? Its a mess, a big mess.
Bartylla says that pastors must now coordinate any decision on baptizing the children of gay couples with his office and that “each case must be evaluated individually.” And this makes sense. When you’ve got a mess, and this is a real mess, it makes sense to adopt a uniform policy. If there are 100+ parishes in a diocese, there should not be 100+ policies in a matter as serious as this. The Bishop, who is chief legislator and liturgist, ought to set the norms.
A spokesman for the Madison Diocese, Brent King, said … “We want everyone to receive this most important sacrament, and we are dealing with this sensitive matter prudently, for the child’s sake and the integrity of this most sacred sacrament,” wrote King. Yes, we want to baptize every child we can. This mess is not their fault. But we have to do so in ways that protect the common good by avoid scandal and confusion….”
To read the entire posting, click here.
This was a well presented piece, which however fails to deal with the Separatist / Exterminationist Agenda of the ‘Turkey Baster Creationist’ coven.
Fathers may not always be present – as has happened frequently when he is a Soldier on duty far away, or fallen on a battlefield or died before the birth. So too with Good Women who made one mistake (or worse yet, were raped) and yet want to do good by a child whose own Father may not be a good Man.
This Differs Greatly from the Demand that Males / Biological Fatherhood be Eliminated from the Law – and thus two Dykes buying an ‘anonymous spitwad of donor material’ are the only “parents’ listed on the Birth Certificate.
The results is insanity claiming that By Law No Male was involved in Creating the Boys who inherited His ‘Y’ DNA – Although groups like the “Donor Sibling Registry” http://www.donorsiblingregistry.com – prove this is a Hateful Lie.
The latter is part of a Misandrist (Hateful to Men & Boys, Masculinity & Normal Heterosexuality) pogrom that is quite clearly spelled out in everything from the ‘SCUM Manifesto’ (society for cutting up men) to “Lesbians Raising Sons” – to curriculum in many ‘catholic’ (small ‘c’) sewers of hate in the pathetic farce of Academentia.
By “anonymous spitwad of donor material”, McDermott refers to human cells, and in so referring, attempts to degrade them. Why am I not surprised.
Normally I don’t feed the Anonymous Alinskyite Trolls – but My Quoting Terms already used in legal and legislative arguments to Deny the Existence of Males and that All Procreation is Heterosexual – requiring Female (XX) Ovum & Male (XY) Sperm, is Not an Endorsement…
– but Exposure of the Fraud by ‘our’ Legislature & Turkey Baster Creationist Courts’ to Deny the Legal Existence of Male Gender & Male Fatherhood as the law now does…
Foundational to the CA Court’s Gender / Procreation scam is the reading of the UPA (Uniform Parenting Act) in a “Gender Neutral Fashion”; from August 22, 2005 (K.M., v. E.G.: S125643 / Elisa B. v. Superior Court; S125912 / Kristine H. v. Lisa R.: S126945) –
Wherein said Court attempted to permanently deny the Equal Protection Rights of Heterosexual Males, and All Their Children.
Proposition 8 has invalidated all such attempts to disfavor Heterosexuality and reaffirmed the Equal Protection Rights of Heterosexual Fathers – although the Courts improperly ignore All aspects of this Valid Constitutional Law. SEE http://www.donorsiblingregistry.com
Jjustice Werdegar in dissent said:”…lacking a rational basis, the rule may well violate equal protection.”
Well … IF Ms. Right ever comes along AND we have a baby, if the local Bishop won’t let a priest or deacon baptize her or him, we’ll go to Rome and ask the Pope to do it!
With any luck SSPX will be regularized and Fellay elected to the See of Peter…and put an end to the “pastoral” nonsense…..
God .. in his infinite wisdom .. has occasionally sent us bad popes …. I don’t think he’d ever send us one THAT bad!
Bad in your opinion C&H… a second Pius X to me and a declaration of war on the “progressive” Catholic where you can all flee to the Presbyterians and have your total church of gay…
Define what precisely you believe to be so bad about Bishop Fellay? His orthodoxy perhaps?
Really, C&H. What is your issue? Disobedience? If so, look to those in full communion who are in regular disobedience by neglecting their call to mind the flock.
He rejects that Vatican II was inspired by the Holy Spirit. That’s not being orthodox. Personally, I think he;s been disrespectful to the Pope after he, in a true act of Christian charity lifted the excommunications Just because the “regular” Church has some bad bishops doesn’t give him the right to make his own rules and do anything he wants.
Nobody is called to believe under pain of sin that Vatican II was inspired by the Holy Ghost, C&H, but rather that the Church is protected from error by the Holy Ghost. But even so, the Society does not reject the whole of Vatican II. Not by any means. There is rather a distinct request for clarity on those documents within the council that even Cardinal Kasper openly admits contain ambiguities that are the root of many a misinterpretation – modernist vs traditionalist. Good grief.
And excommunications are not lifted as a mere act of charity, C&H. You misunderstand the usage of such a decree. A Pope who would mislead the faithful, to include the one wrongly excommunicated, by relieving said situation just for the sake of being nice is not exercising his office properly.
That said, nobody is seeking to ‘make their own rules and do anything they want,’ within the Society. Rather many are seeking to faithfully live and believe in accordance with what Holy Mother Church has always taught. That is why there is an insistence on clarifying that which is ambiguous within some of the VII documents. Precisely so that clerics will not make up their own rules and do anything they want as evidenced by – sorry – the pro-homosexual sex, birth control supporting, false ecumenical nonsense endemic within the Church communities.
If a bishop can ordain anyone he wants to the episcopacy in direct contradiction to Rome, then one is indeed making up their own rules. The perception of ambiguity is one thing, directly and purposefully doing a sacred act that the Pontiff asked you specifically not to do is quite another.
If Bishops and priests can teach that which is in direct contrast with the deposit of the Faith (even Fr. Baron’s intimation that we can entertain the though that there is nobody in Hell) that is making things up under the guise of obedience. Or at least offering that which is less than truthful. That is no perception of ambiguity, YFC, that is ambiguity which has led to this ongoing crisis within the Church.
That said, canon law provides for times of crisis that you blindly classify as disobedience. You may want to study it, my friend.
That said, you may want to apply the same logic to the Church in China and the schismatic Orthodox who have ‘jurisdiction’ and be consistent in your applications, YFC. Consistency will earn respect, inconsistency based on whim and ambiguity will not.
Not even the Pope can make things up as he goes along, not even by omission. For that is not what the Church teaches.
Dear Ann Malley: You are the one who accuses, without so much as a smidgeon of evidence and while jeopardizing your own soul that “Bishops and priests [can] teach that which is in direct contrast with the deposit of the Faith.” You are accusing Bishops and priests of heresy. This is an extraordinarily serious charge. I would have thought that you would have wanted to back it up before putting it into writing.
No, I guess not. Accuse first, wipe over the inconsistencies in your own stance second, resort to ad hominems third. I may have gotten the order wrong.
YFC, the truth accuses, not me. (But then Truth is your real adversary.) The recent survey showing that a majority of Catholics in the pews (including you) do not even know the Faith let alone seek to practice it in its entirety is the accuser. Bishops and priests are those tasked with teaching the flock *rightly* so that they can be faithful if you didn’t know. As per your own posts, you have apparently been given the go-ahead to promote and perpetuate a lifestyle that is unCatholic and potentially damnable if not repented. (So very post you make is the ‘proof’ you seek.)
So yes, the charge of not teaching the truth is a serious charge. This is common knowledge, however, thanks to the Vatican survey. So the onus to ‘prove’ something is again a moot argument. Something you are familiar with as you attempt to silence one and all into being buffaloed from speaking Truth or using their own senses to see the filth being promoted INSIDE Holy Mother Church.
Ecumenical Councils (of which Vatican II is one) are those to which the bishops, and others entitled to vote, are convoked from the whole world under the presidency of the pope or his legates, and the decrees of which, having received papal confirmation, bind all Christians.
Today I want to focus on the action that the Holy Spirit accomplishes in guiding the Church and each one of us to the Truth. Jesus says to his disciples: the Holy Spirit, “he will guide you to all truth” (Jn 16:13), he himself being “the Spirit of truth” (cf. Jn 14:17; 15:26; 16:13). We live in an age rather skeptical of truth. Benedict XVI has spoken many times of relativism, that is, the tendency to believe that nothing is definitive, and think that the truth is given by consent or by what we want. Pope Francis May 15, 2013
So if Vatican II did not promote any new doctrine as is commonly taught that would indicate that it only doubles-down on that which was clearly defined by Trent. So sticking to the clarity of Trent would keep one well in the clear of transgressing that which actually binds. Thanks for the note, Anonymous.
God help us if the Cardinals ever elect a bishop ordained via an illegal and schismatic act to the See of Peter. God help us all!
News flash SSPX is not schism… Anon in case you missed the news the excommunications were lifted over 5 years ago.
His ordination was illegal and schismatic when it happenned. He is still prohibited from public ministry. A man ordained without the permission of he Pontiff has no right to become the Pontiff.
Whatever Anon I am sure you consider womanpriests licit and valid….
Anonymous is right Canisius, a pastor from the Tridentine Mass told us that too.
No doubt that is why Canisius stated that he hoped the Society would be regularized. If that were so, there would be no impediment to raising Bishop Fellay to Papcy if he were summarily elected.
Or do you believe that only those lawfully ordained who do not hold to, defend or teach the faith in its entirety have a claim to the office of Pope? The very office established to protect the full deposit of Faith.
I am impressed with Mr Anonymous’ compelling orthodoxy; I am sure an orthodoxy that was compellingly silent when former-Abp. George NIederauer deliberately gave communion to the Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence (see the video); or kept mum under decades of palpable “orthodox” leadership by Bps. Blaire, Cummins, and Card. Mahony; or chose silence when Abp. Weakland, who loved to travel the US advocating his unique ideas of Vat2 (read his autobiography: he helped design, along with Bugnini our “New Mass”) just about destroyed priesthood in the Archdio. of Mil-wacky and then advocated for a womyn’s priesthood; or silence, when dear PJ McGrath authorized SEIU labor union reps to give the homily at all Masses in summer, 2012 advocating for an increased minimum wage; or approved directly of Dr Lisa Fullam’s (SCU faculty) theological “investigations” (I have a copy of the letter); or asserted that the Gospels were “not historical accounts of historical events” (2004) — a prima facie heretical position by a “teaching” bishop.
I only have 250 words: so, Yes, I am impressed with Anonymous’ secure and compelling orthodoxy and “his” bishops, and the “doubtful” union and orthodoxy of a Fellay or Lefebvre, for that matter.
First, let the Society hold to all that the Church teaches. Then we’ll see as to regularization.
No sense arguing with Anon ladies…. whatever Anon is its not Catholic it wants the church of gay to come to its full blossom, ie the Apostate Church which now exists inside the Church.. My dream job..the Grand Inquisitor of New Inquisition… I would take care of business in 45 days… the result being a Church purged of the filth once and for all…In Christ Name…
Canisius, the abti-Christ is not walking the earth. Thus, simeone like you cannot yet become Grand Inquisitor. You’ll have to satisfy yourself about fantisizing about being Torquemanda
Well, Anonymous, first let us see all Cardinals, Bishops, priests and religious hold to what the Church actually teaches and then we could go from there. For the brother that tells the father yes and then goes off to do as he pleases is NOT pleasing to the Father. And certainly no *good example* to the younger or anyone else.
I’m thinking again that that is what Pope Francis may be referring to when he suggests that proselytizing is pious nonsense. The stereotype of the those preaching what they themselves do not do is actually counterproductive. Much like you suggesting that those with Orthodox Catholic belief and practice need to ‘follow all that the Church teaches’, and yet you would welcome a pool of heterogeneous ‘Catholics’ who choose the follow the example of saying yes, but doing as they please on myriad critical issues.
That said, the primary purpose of the Church is to save souls, not lead them into confusion and ignorance which the recent surveys of the faithful have proved is the case. By their fruits you shall know them. So who precisely has been obedient to what the Church teaches over these past 50 years, Anonymous?
So saying
Yes, indeed, Anonymous, God would be helping us if the Cardinals actually elected someone faithful to the Faith, whole and entire. But Cardinals, just like regular folks, can resist grace and often do. That is why we have the mess we do.
Since when do homosexual heretics care about the validity of ordinations?
They don’t, juergensen, at least in so far as things might actually be valid if those in positions of power actually upheld and teach the Faith.
“….. let us ask ourselves if we have actually taken a few steps to get to know Christ and the truths of faith more, by reading and meditating on the Scriptures, studying the Catechism, steadily approaching the Sacraments.” – Pope Francis, May 15, 2013.
PAUL by what are you trying to convey by using that quote from Pope Francis?
There is no ambiguity. Mortal Sin is Mortal Sin. Mortal sins are defined in the “Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition”.
It damages the child to be raised in a home where Mortal Sin is the practiced norm, and sets a bad example for him.
For a child to be baptized, Parents and God-parents must denounce the devil and denounce ALL MORTAL SIN (-as defined in the CCC);
unless the child is near death.
(One can not denounce mortal sin, if one plans to continue living in it.)
In countries where infant Baptism is celebrated – post baptismal teaching is required in full accord with the CCC (#1231). – So all parents and god-parents have this specific OBLIGATION as well.
Confusion and Scandal can help send Souls to Hell for eternity.
Jesus, Himself was baptized as an adult, to set the example for all of us.
Excellent comments PAUL! FIXED ON JESUS!
What these Priests need to ask themselves is –
why have there been so many who live outside the Church in sin ? ? ? ? ?
Could it be their lack of teaching the literate to read the Bible and the CCC?
This is the real answer.
Parents are not going to save the Souls of their children when they teach them to live in Mortal Sin by example.
I am surprised that this article would disclose this information. It’s shocking to hear that the church was ok with baptizing the children of single women because they could, at least, pretend the mother had repented.
It greatly undermines the authority of the church if it really reasons by way of saving face.
I would imagine the church could simply do whatever it is that it does with any adopted child. I’m sure there are countless adopted kids where there is no record of the birthing parents.
Why are humans so complicated and why are church leadership making it more complicated than it should be? If these so called couples are already defying the church by adopting children, then they are not living and setting a good witness, its obvious! How can they raise these children Catholic if they defy the real definition of marriage? So it’s simple! You can’t participate in this sacrament because if they do, its as close as acting out mockery and disrespect! (not only that but scandalizing these children is it outright seen with these types of couples). These couples defy the natural law which is far worst then someone having a child out of wedlock from opposite sexes!
That is why the sin of sodomy is a heinous sin against the natural law, it scandalizes children! They blame this as a crises but the real issue are the “couples” in question! They have made their choice away from God and now feel entitled to these sacraments and for their children! If they really loved their children and cared for their salvation, then they would practice what they are bringing their child to. Children do not choose, its not like the protestant sects, whom some believe that baptism is a choice when they get older. We Catholics know that its far much deeper than simply that, and if those couples really believe in the truth of baptism, would they still choose to embrace acts against the natural law?
The church really needs to fix their eye’s back on Jesus and believe me, if they did, this crises would not be such a crises as they make it seem to be through this article! Return to Jesus! The answer is there and it won’t be so hard!
YES its not the children’s fault but neither is abortion! Trust that God will take care of these innocent victims forced to live in households that defy the natural law! What we need to do is have masses throughout the world for these innocent children, in reparation of the scandalizing that is being allowed to these children, they are being scandalized by being told that they it is OK to defy God’s natural law!
Yes tough words but they are the truth folks. The church should be a place to find the truth and it should not feel that this is an “issue”! Its not! If this was brought up so the church can become more lenient then it will be give out the wrong message and it will become heretical in it’s desensitized view on this situations!
Lets pray for our church that they will be given the wisdom and know how on what our Lord really wants on these instances but let us not make a mockery of the faith, nor allow the scandalizing of these innocent children either!
The church needs to return to God! To understand His natural law and why it’s so important to not confuse matters either! Its not complicated folks! We are facing these hard issues because mankind has left God! What is more insulting to deal with, is that humanity has grown so far apart from God, that they insult Him, they mock Him! They use innocent children to do it! The church can not be used for these purposes of bad will! Some would argue, but the laws today are permitting this and its not the children’s fault! yes that is true but when we lose sight of Christ, His salvation, His love, His heart, if the church is for the repentant and for all sinners, then why would they permit the breaking of Jesus commandment to not scandalize these little ones and if we understand what the church has always taught on the sin of sodomy, then we would also speak up and not allow such individuals to mock the faith with their insult to pretend they care about the sacrament of baptism for the innocent caught in the middle of their very apparent defiance against the natural law! The church has always had a strong stance against sins that defy the natural law!
What is needed, is a truly strong, sincere, “practicing Catholic” Church, in which everyone, clergy and laity, have been taught their Faith and Morals— and all are busy with the daily PRACTICE of their holy religion!! We also need the enforcement of the Code of Canon Law, to fully back- up the Church! And excellent Catholic schools, kindergarten through graduate school, and beyond— all orthodox, happy and PROUD, to be the VERY BEST, all daily PRACTICING their Catholic Faith and Morals! Then, a new society will be born, of a fabulous, deeply religious, truly moral Church, faithful and true, to Jesus Christ!! Lots of wonderful Catholic marriages, and wonderful Catholic children, lots of vocations to the sacred Priesthood, and to the nuns– and the holy Virtue of Chastity, revered and practiced by all, for love of Christ, and His most Blessed Mother!! That is what we need!! The Church must teach and preach CHRISTIAN MORALITY, and SELF-CONTROL, and inculcate Christ’s holy faith and Morals, in everyone!! Then, she will be a true SUCCESS, for Christ!! No longer will she be an abysmal FAILURE, with ridiculous problems!!
This UNITY can be attained by insisting that ALL Priests and Nuns read and study the “CATECHISM of the CATHOLIC CHURCH, second edition’ (1997).
and
that all literate Laity over age 15 read and study the CCC and Bible – in their own homes.
The CCC contains our Faith and Morals in entirety – accurately and without personal opinions.
For more info on the CCC go to: “What Catholics REALLY Believe SOURCE”
https://whatcatholicsreallybelieve.com/
Had those who formulated the Novus Ordo not completely abandoned the “Prayers at the Foot of the Altar” and the “Prayers to St. Michael and at the End of the Mass”. I believe they are called the “Leonine Prayers”, we might not be in this Mess at all.
I remember asking an Archbishop Author and Theologian, who was both Latin and Eastern (Lithuanian), and who was present a VII, who was responsible for that. He replied “I wish we knew, we have been trying to figure it out ever since” He definitely stated that the Prayers to St. Michael should be restored!
May God have mercy on an amoral Amerika and His Church!
Viva Cristo Rey!
Yours in Their Hearts,
Kenneth M. Fisher, Founding Director
Concerned Roman Catholics of America, Inc
The smiles are really going to come off these women’s faces when this child finds out he/she really DOES have a father and not two mothers, which is impossible. On cannot tell a child that purple is orange and red is blue and expect them to have any trust in you. Some adult children of these relationships have already started to write articles and books about how confusing and disorientating being brought up this way was. Many are now suing to find out who their fathers really are. The storm over all this has only begun.
Correction to my third line: “One cannot tell …..”
All babies that are brought forth should be baptized. No conditions. That should be the policy of the Church. Cleanse original sin.
To me the one good thing that VC2 brought forth was communion for all without need of going to confession. Similarly, we should have baptism for all. The Pope Francis October Synod will bring forth communion for cohabitants, divorced and remarried outside the Church, and gays, I suspect. All that will be needed is to go to confession. I do not disagree with this, we need to save souls and in this every person matters.
The two Lesbians in the photo are from Cordoba, Argentina and the godmother was Peronist President Cristina Kishner who sent her military representatives to the Cathedral where this took place. Big day for homosexual propaganda. But as mentioned above, we must go for numbers and PP Franciscus understands pastoral populism.
Gratias your comments are not faithful to the church teachings! For the sake of your salvation, reflect, pray and then go to confession. Your comments are heretical and cause scandal.
Baptizing all babies, no questions asked is not so radical.
Frequent communion is the only good consequence of VC2 in my opinion. Many people cohabitate, are divorced, or homosexual. The pastoral purpose of PP Franciscus October Synod is to let these millions communicate after confession. They already do in praxis. It is the new aggiornamento desired by the Pope.
So you desire that the Sacrament of Confession degrade to a sacrilege of confessing that for which you are neither sorry nor repentant? But rather what one is PROUD of and passing down to one’s children? Is that what you’re ascribing to the Pope, Gratias?
What is next? Baptizing the world by proxy like Mormons do. No desire, no change of life, no need to hear and or attempt to live the Gospel? (And, hey, no need to preach it either as the Gospel is highly controversial.)
I would agree that the practice of doing what you describe above is common enough, but it is an abuse of the sacraments, Gratias, no charity and a complete disregard for the dignity of mankind.
That said, frequent communion was not the result of VII. Not by any means.
Gratias, Did someone try to hijack your name? The July 4, 2014 at 11:16 pm post sounds like someone is trying to slip in a fast one or pulling a Father Barron teaching on hell. …. (See You Tube titled ‘Fr Barron comments on Is Hell Crowded or Empty.’) Are you also making up a new politically correct, easier and friendlier sounding formula of thought to replace the teachings of the Catholic Church in order to appease modern times? Are you respecting men before respectfully respecting God first! Jesus NEVER said to his disciples, “Do whatever is convenient in modern times.”
THE CURSE OF BROADMINDEDNESS by Bishop Fulton J. Sheen
Taken from the book “Moods and Truths” Published in 1932
“The remedy for this broadmindedness is intolerance, not intolerance of persons, for of them we must be tolerant regardless of views they may hold, but intolerance of principles. A bridge builder must be intolerant about the foundations of his bridge; the gardener must be intolerant about weeds in his gardens; the property owner must be intolerant about his claims to property; the soldier must be intolerant about his country, as against that of the enemy, and he who is broadminded on the battlefield is a coward and a traitor.
The discussions that have already taken place publicly about the October Synod almost guarantee that the practice in the parishes will be that communion will be offered to people having pre-marital, homosexual or divorced sex. Even if they declare doctrine is not changed, the effect will be an aggiornamento to adapt to the world of Man. It will not be a great change here in America over what we already practice.
As for baptizing all babies that are brought through a Church door, on the spot, no questions asked, I truly think it is essential for cleansing original sin and ensuring the Catholic Faith will continue.
Faith without Faith is truly dead, Gracias. So we can aggorniamento ourselves into outright devil worship, that is manufacture invincible ignorance by gagging Holy Mother Church, under the guise of false obedience and abuse of authority. The effect will sacrilege, not sanctification.
God is not mocked.
Catherine, I think that Gratias was employing a very mordantly ironic view of the very dismal present state of affairs in the Catholic Church. One way to remedy a situation is to get out of the way and let It collapse; especially when one really doesn’t have the power to correct the systemic problems.
Traditional-minded catholics have been excluded from the operations of the Catholic church for most of the last 4 decades. It probably is best to concentrate on those isolated enclaves where the Faith still survives. It is what St Anthony of the Desert did. It is what Romano Amerio years ago predicted at the end of his magnum opus on V2, Iota Unum.
Thank you Steve Phoenix!
This crises in the church are due because the hearts of men are turning their backs on God. I will say it again, this is the time, where true saints will be made. Through these scandals and more to come, the church will become more unrecognizable. The lay faithful need to remain loyal and fix their eye’s on Jesus and His truths. They need to speak those truths as often as needed and as called to do so. Pray on how to deliver those truths.
Great post, Abeca Christian, and very true.
Thank you Anne T. God bless you.
Any crises in the Church are due to the fact that Rome tried to prohibit birth control, even though the vast numbers of the faithful including the bishops opposed the doctrine. It didn’t help that priests couldn’t keep their hands off the little ones. Or that women are relegated to second class citizens in the Church alone.
For example, notice that in those societies that denigrate women….the Church thrives. Where women are given equal status with men, the Church struggles.
Be any wonder that the flourishing churches are mysogyinistic throwbacks to the 19th century or earlier. It doesn’t have to be this way, we can have a flourishing Church, all it takes is for it to recognize women for all their worth.
Sounds like a classic Protestant attack on the Catholic Church: A mile wide, a millimeter deep in intellectual analysis. Rev. Prescott would be proud of you. (Prescott was a Protestant clergyman of the 19th century who spewed anti-Catholic hatred about the church in Mexico to help justify the War of 1848. )
If you are all about recognizing the ‘worth’ of women, stop trying to make women into men. By doing so you show yourself to be the true misogynist, hating that which is female and attempting to change it into that which is inherently male. As if being ‘male’ is the measure of worth.
Get real with yourself, Anonymous.
Fine, attack the messenger rather than the message. I’m just telling you that Western societies have far less tolerance for treating women like chattle as they did 50, 75 or 100 years ago. In the past, women insisted that their husbands and sons go to Church with them. They were often the “first responders” of the faith. But, once women understood that they have some agency over their own bodies, and deserve an equal role in society, yet failed to see those things reflected in their Church, they either stopped going, or they went with their families to the megaChurch down the street.
You are a messenger who attempts to gull women into believing that having agency over one’s body gives one the right to mistreat their own body in the name of equality.
Equal role does not equate to the same role, Anonymous. Or do you tell your feet to refuse to walk because they have the right to see and be carried like your eyes. Nonsense. You are the messenger of division and self hate, nothing more.
If people stopped going to Church and listening to God’s law it is nothing more than what was predicted in the Gospel when those with itching ears would turn to those preaching what they ‘wanted’ to hear instead of truth. But instigation is your name and agitation is your message.
Begone.
Agency implies self responsibility, oh Ms. Malley. Or have you forgotten that? A woman’s agency does not free her from moral constraints, it simply takes agency away from others, mostly the males (father and husband), and places moral responsibility where it belongs: with her. Just as God the Father placed Agency for the sacred womb in Mary, rather than in Joseph. If it were up to Joseph, he’d have been out of there in no time.
Now this is the anti-Catholic crap that is being allowed to be posted here from anony posters and other dissenters. Mrs Malley was charitable to this anony and all this anony can do is dummy down the truth that she just tried to convey with defending the real value of women! Praise God that those of good will know the difference!
There are many anti-Christian bigots/dissenters here on this website, its so disturbing. God have mercy!
Anony I disagree with your views on women in the church. I actually believe that Christ has elevated women in a special way, its the sins of humans that have brought down women and men.
There is a huge difference. Just because some men, even in protestant sects, have misconstrued the role of women and in their special way as God intends,which it is entirely due to sin, doesn’t mean that allowing women to misuse their bodies and disobey God’s natural law as intended, is what the church has caused. If we kept our eye’s fixed on Jesus, we would embrace His plan. But remember due to original sin, we will continue to be in the mercy of our Lord and have to endure the flesh, in hopes that we overcome our sinfulness and have a genuine zeal to please God so that some day we will unite with our Lord and no longer have to deal with this flesh.
Until then, stop blaming the church, for the church is the body of Christ, it’s not meant to injure or hurt but it’s meant to bring us Christ and His truths, if humans are imperfect, then blame that but not God and His church!
If this is your understanding of agency:
“…A woman’s agency does not free her from moral constraints, it simply takes agency away from others, mostly the males (father and husband), and places moral responsibility where it belongs: with her.”
Then you have absolutely no basis for your assertion that the Church treats women as second class citizens based on that premise, Anonymous. Your original post is incomplete and divisive based on false correlations and repression mongering.
Praise God that there are others out there, too, that do not pander to the ‘Ms.’ mentality but can and do relate to being a ‘Mrs.’ without joining the Henny Penney crowd that is too easily led, herded, and used by the friendly fox. The Anonymous of this world would have everyone crying stalker at their own shadow if it suited their purposes.
That’s called marketing, Anonymous, creating a perceived ‘need’ where none exists, usually for profit. But faithful Catholics and women who aren’t hung up on hating themselves aren’t buying. So sell your bogus ‘product’ elsewhere.
Also, Anonymous, DO NOT MALIGN ST. JOSEPH! Almighty God granted agency to this Terror of Demons not only over the Christ Child in the sealed garden of Mary’s womb, but also over Mary herself. (To protect her from gross men who would deny all but their most base instincts.) Our Lady would likely be the first to call you out for such aspersions cast against her chaste spouse who, under the law, had the power of life and death over her. He could have had her stoned, but didn’t. And yet you say, “…he’d be out there in no time.”
What rampant ignorance, Anonymous.
Oh, Anon, Jesus Christ had a beautiful plan for His Church and the men and women in it……..and it was open to life. Just like the beautiful plan He had for Adam and Eve before they turned away from Him. Contraception wasn’t, can never be, and never will be apart of Holy Mother Church. Lost Sheperds may prevail in October bringing more confusion into Holy Mother Church………but the Truth will live on in the hearts and minds of the faithful to His Holy Mother Church! May God protect the innocent and show mercy to those who continue to insist otherwise.
Apparently the truth hits close to home. Is the Opus Dei and SSPX crowd a little scared of the truth, because they are committed to driving the Church into the ground with their misogyny? The Pope is right you know, when he says that we have never developed a theology of women. And that must scare the pants off the repressed little Latin Men who like to pretend that the world can return to 1950.
Truth always bears out, Anonymous. And an ‘agency’ that advocates chucking being a woman in lieu of being a man or men behaving like women (really sick) will drive the human race into non-existence.
As for ‘repression’, I’m not sure what you think Catholic men are kept from doing save sodomizing other males because all the women have opted to be baby killing Dykes in your world view. But that’s not repressed, that’s disgusted and having all of one’s faculties.
Brave new world yourself into weeping at the foot of the Cross. Human agency devoid of God and His grace will lead to it in time despite all the teenage denial of not me. For God is not mocked, so whatever “church” you create will not stand in place of His.
PRAYER TO ST. JOSEPH PROTECTOR OF THE UNIVERSAL CHURCH
Oh, St. Joseph, whose protection is so great, so strong, so prompt before the throne of God. I place in you all my interests and desires. Oh, St. Joseph, do assist me by your powerful intercession, and obtain for me from your devine Son all spiritual blessings, through Jesus Christ, our Lord. So that, having engaged here below your heavenly power, I may offer my thanksgiving and homage to the most loving of Fathers.
Oh, St. Joseph, I never weary of contemplating you, and Jesus asleep in your arms; I dare not approach while He reposes near your heart. Press Him in my name and kiss His fine head for me and ask him to return the Kiss when I draw my dying breath. St. Joseph, Patron of departing souls – Pray for me.