As diocesan bishops consider how to implement Pope Francis’ motu proprio on the use of the Traditional Latin Mass, the Archbishop of San Francisco has said it will continue to be available in his local Church.
Archbishop Salvatore Cordileone of San Francisco told Catholic News Agency July 16 that “The Mass is a miracle in any form: Christ comes to us in the flesh under the appearance of Bread and Wine. Unity under Christ is what matters. Therefore the Traditional Latin Mass will continue to be available here in the Archdiocese of San Francisco and provided in response to the legitimate needs and desires of the faithful.”
It seems that Traditional Latin Masses in dioceses throughout the United States are largely set to continue as scheduled, while bishops prepare responses to Traditionis custodes.
The motu proprio states that it is each bishop’s “exclusive competence” to authorize the use of the 1962 Roman Missal in his diocese.
It sets out the responsibilities of bishops whose dioceses already have one or more groups that offer Mass in the extraordinary form, mandating that bishops determine that these groups do not deny the validity of Vatican II and the Magisterium.
Bishops are instructed to “designate one or more locations where the faithful adherents of these groups may gather for the eucharistic celebration (not however in the parochial churches and without the erection of new personal parishes).”
Archbishop Cordileone’s sentiment matched that of other bishops.
Bishop Edward Scharfenberger of Albany wrote that “With respect to the celebration of the Roman Liturgy prior to the reforms of 1970, I wish to reiterate the great pastoral and spiritual good that has been experienced by those who have been and who are engaged in this form of the Liturgy. I would also like to acknowledge the many valuable contributions made to the life of the Church through such celebrations….”
The above comes from a July 16 story on the site of the Catholic News Agency.
Thank you Archbishop Cordileone that means so much to many of us that we are not just cast aside like nobodies simply because we wish to worship Our Lord as it has been done for 1,500 years. We wish to be to left alone and not attacked by the Novus Ordo elite who will find ways to do just that.
If your TLM is at a parochial parish, it’s illegal. If the readings are proclaimed in Latin, it’s illegal. Read the motu proprio.
The pope has said all TLM Catholics are to eventually switch to the Novus Ordo. Vatican II is the boss.
Not what it said.
Thank you Archbishop Cordileone that means so much to many of us that we are not just cast aside like nobodies simply because we wish to worship Our Lord as it has been done for 1,500 years. We wish to be to left alone and not attacked by the Novus Ordo elite who will find ways to do just that.
Bless you, Archbishop Cordileone. You are truly one of the Lord’s shepherds.
Look up the word “pastoral” in the dictionary. You will find Archbishop Cordileone’s picture next to the definition.
He has to obey the motu proprio. He can’t let the TLM continue forever and he can’t allow it at parochial parishes.
When will a courageous bishop state the truth: something like, “I know there are Catholics in our diocese who are attached to the TLM and have been attending the TLM devotedly, and as your shepherd I will ensure that your spiritual needs are provided for during this period of transition. However, the pope has called for the Church to unify in celebrating one liturgy, the Novus Ordo Mass, which is the unique liturgy of the Church. In obedience to the Holy Father and for the sake of unity in our diocese, I will establish a timeframe for the gradual phase-out of all TLMs in our diocese no later than 2.5 years from today, so that on the First Sunday of Advent 2024 the only liturgical celebrations in the diocese will be according to the Novus Ordo. More information will be given later to the communities that will be affected by this transition.”
“I also direct the priests in our diocese to begin working on how you can make the Novus Ordo Mass more reverent and incorporate more elements from the Church’s rich liturgical tradition. I encourage priests to celebrate Mass ad orientem on occasion, to increase the use of incense, to direct musicians to sing more Gregorian and vernacular chant, to use more Latin in the Mass, and to celebrate Mass with the humility and dignity that those who have been attending the TLM cherish and earnestly desire in the Church’s liturgy. I will soon initiate a series of workshops and inservices for all priests and parish lay liturgical ministers on how the Novus Ordo Mass should be celebrated in order to incorporate more elements from the past into the present-day liturgy.”
That is what is needed right now. Is there a bishop with that vision and that courage?
Many Catholics ignorantly think of the Church as a monolithic Roman Catholic Church built upon Peter, while the Catholic Church is actually a universal unity of the Western Latin Church and 23 Eastern Apostolic Churches. The Catechism lists not only the Roman Rite (ordinary form Novus Ordo and extraordinary form TLM), but six additional rites. Masses (aka “Divine Liturgies”) at most Eastern Catholic Churches are “ad orientum” with incense and harmonious singing without instruments. I find them a breath of fresh air for my other lung.
There’s a reason to live in San Francisco after all. God Bless Archbishop Cordileone and Fr, Illo for preserving traditional forms of Catholic worship.
Mary Star of the Sea is a parochial/territorial parish. TLMs aren’t permitted at parochial parishes anymore according to the new motu proprio. Archbishop Cordileone has to abide by that new rule. So only Novus Ordo should be celebrated at Mary Star of the Sea, effective immediately.
Star of the Sea Church in San Francisco will not change. Call them and see for yourself. And have respect and good manners when you do, kiddo.
That was a confusing part of the moto proprio. It may mean if the bishop is establishing a place for the TLM to be had. I do not think it means that a Church like Star of the Sea cant do what it has been doing.
Father Illo says both forms of the Mass.
I see that the bishop of Little Rock interpreted it the way that you did.
Because the bishop at Little Rock got it right.
It is long past time for priests all over the country to clean up their NO Masses. In too many places, they have been a scandal since instituted and have shamed and discouraged congregants away from their territorial parishes.
The Mass is a miracle in any form, but Vatican II has said that the old form was to be done away with. Now Pope Francis has confirmed that.
Can you tell us where Vatican II said that?
I read the documents and I didn’t see that there.
Sure: Sacrosanctum Concilium “50. The rite of the Mass is to be revised in such a way that the intrinsic nature and purpose of its several parts, as also the connection between them, may be more clearly manifested, and that devout and active participation by the faithful may be more easily achieved. For this purpose the rites are to be simplified, due care being taken to preserve their substance; elements which, with the passage of time, came to be duplicated, or were added with but little advantage, are now to be discarded; other elements which have suffered injury through accidents of history are now to be restored to the vigor which they had in the days of the holy Fathers, as may seem useful or necessary.”
You’re welcome. Next time read more carefully.
The rite of the Mass is to be revised. That means changed. That means replace the old with a new.
Revision is not replacement. They are the same rite.
The revised English translation replaced the old translation, yet they are the same rite and the same Missal. So there. Revision entails replacement in the liturgy.
I don’t agree with your semantics. I think it is misleading.
One particular cause of psychological unrest today is the battleground of social media, the maelstrom of opinions from semi-educated loudmouths. — Fr. Peter Kwasniewski
I like that. Thanks for posting it. (I don’t do the thumbs.)
Kwasniewski isn’t a priest. He’s not “Fr.”.
They don’t celebrate the TLM in heaven.
Anonymous, the Mass is very, very holy. It is a preparation for Heaven. It is meant to teach us, sanctify us, and prepare us for Heaven. Christ comes down to the altar of God at Transubstantiation, and that is a glorious, holy event. A miracle. Actually, many in the past have called the beautiful, sublime, holy Tridentine Latin Mass “the most beautiful thing this side of Heaven ”
So many of these comments prove that Francis was right. TLM lovers reject Vatican II.
No thank you Kevin T. The TLM is more than just incense, bells, Latin, Gregorian chant and beautiful vestments, it’s a mindset, it brings you into heaven while the priest is offering the holy sacrifice of the mass, while there are nice Novus ordo masses said in Latin it is not the TLM. What was done by Pope Francis yesterday was nasty and mean but he has a crutch to grind and it is against the TLM always has been, he is bitter and angry and now he suffers grave illness we need to pray for his conversion.
False. Romulus Augustus needs to be corrected. What is actually “nasty and mean” is what has been done by some supporters of the TLM who have used this beautiful Mass to sow division, hostility, doubt concerning the Magisterium and Vatican II in particular. Well, this has been a day of reckoning for those who mock the Ordinary Form; a day of reckoning for those who sow division within the Church. Francis was not “mean and nasty”; it is his responsibility as the Universal Shepherd to make sure that anything that divides the Church is eliminated. He has merely done his duty.
It matters not that with all the real evil going in the Church from James Martin to the betrayal and sell-out of the Faithful Catholic Church in China, this is what he thinks he so important. This motu propio is already being ignored as it should. If he really cared about “division” he would immediately deal with the Church in Germany which for all intents and purposes in schism.
bohemond speaks of the “real evil” going on in the Church? Really? What can surpass the evil of abusing this beautiful Mass by turning it into a weapon against the Pope, against Vatican II, against certain bishops, against certain Catholics and priests? The Mass, which was meant to unite the People of God, was being turned into a weapon to divide. That.Is.Evil. I would even describe it as demonic. People, and that includes bohemond, why don’t you re-read with humility, remorse, and repentance the Pope’s letter accompanying the motu priopio. The Pope brilliantly called out the spirit of deceit and division that sadly has grown from Benedict’s otherwise benevolent motu propio, Summorum Pontificum.
Jon, as I read it, people are drawn to the TLM not with any intention to snub Francis but simply to love God. To call that evil is most astonishing. In fact it is Francis who has turned the TLM issue into a weapon of division. He has inveighed against “rigid” Catholics from the beginning, judging them defective in their piety. He is at war with these people, and he instigated the battle. You need to think, or rethink matters from the very beginning of this pontificate.to understand the moves Francs has taken to gut the important parts of the legacy of John Paul II and Benedict. Moreover his rehabilitation of McCarrick and selling out Catholics in China is evil. It is not, I repeat, not evil to point this out. Finally, let me reiterate I am not a TLM devotee — I have never been to one and am happy with the Novus Ordo when it is done with reverence.
Dan is mistaken. Note how Dan has sneaked-in other issues, irrelevant to the motu propio: China, McCarrick, thereby conflating erroneously irrelevant matters to create a false narrative. The truth, and folks we all know this, is that there have been many people who exclusively attend the TLM who have used it to sow division within the Church and animosity against the Magisterium, particularly the Pope. Rather than asking me to “think or rethink matters from the beginning of his pontificate,” you should more appropriately ask the devotees of the TLM to “think and rethink” how they in their personal life and in their conversations have inadvertently or intentionally cast doubt on other people’s minds about the Church’s Magisterium, and about the validity of the Ordinary Form. The Successor of Peter has rightly called out a serious transgression on their part; they ought to use this time to repent and do penance, rather than complain falsely how “mean” Francis is. I am saying that as someone who frequently go to the TLM.
Dan is exactly right and I just read Cardinal Mueller’s take on this and this is the part that says it al:
And despite all the apparent enthusiasm they express for Pope Francis, they are flatly denying the authority conferred on him by Christ as the successor of Peter. The Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith’s document about the impossibility of legitimizing same-sex and extramarital sexual contacts through a blessing is ridiculed by German (and not only German) bishops, priests, and theologians as merely the opinion of under-qualified curial officials. Here we have a threat to the unity of the Church in revealed faith, reminiscent of the size of the Protestant secession from Rome in the sixteenth century. Given the disproportion between the relatively modest response to the massive attacks on the unity of the church in the German “Synodal Way” (as well as in other pseudo-reforms) and the harsh disciplining of the old ritual minority, the image of the misguided fire brigade comes to mind, which – instead of saving the blazing house – instead first saves the small barn next to it.
Dan is still wrong because Ronnie has failed to correct his error by the use of words from Cardinal Mueller. Admit it folks, the sin of turning the Holy Mass into an instrument of division and hatred within the Church, which is what some if not many exclusive TLM-goers have done, is very severe. The Pope is very correct and should be lauded for acting decisively on this severe and very serious transgression. That he has not acted as vigorously to the German bishops, he has his reasons. But we can deduce that whatever the German bishops have done and are doing—in Francis’ eyes–is not as threatening to the worldwide unity of the Church as was being wrought globally by many TLM-goers. How many chapels and churches do the beloved SSPX, FSSP, and ICRSS have around the world versus what is global reach of the German bishops, say, in Africa or Asia?
jon, you ask “what can surpass the evil of abusing the beautiful [TLM] Mass to sow division the Church…”.
For starters, cardinals and bishops who have been laicized for their life of sexual sin; shady 200 million euro real estate deals put together by high Church officials who then suborn perjury when caught; the laxity of the Church decision-maker who required only a 1-page memo as a basis for OK’ing A 200 million euro deal; homosexual rings allowed to operate within the Curia, diocesan chanceries and–worst of all–in seminaries; known clerical sexual abuse widespread in virtually every country but covered up by the bishops. . .
Got the idea, you the most ultra of Ultramontanists?
Even those sins, STRAIN, pale in comparison to the very grave sin of using the sacraments in order to divide and to destroy the Church. Using sacred things, using the sacraments, to do the work of Satan, which is to divide and destroy it, is precisely that–demonic.
This is why.
God bless our wonderful Abp. Cordileone. Looking forward to again receiving Holy Communion from him– on my knees, at the sublime, holy Tridentine Latin Mass.
Just be careful it’s not an illegal Mass or a Mass with TLM liturgical abuse. Be obedient, and you’ll be okay. Go to a Mass in accord with the motu proprio and you’ll be okay. To participate in an illegal or schismatic Mass could be a sin.
Nobody is attending an “illegal” Mass.
Enjoy it while it lasts because soon enough you’ll have to go to Mass with felt banners draped on the walls, seven guitars strumming “Sing to the Mountains”, a bongo played by an 80 year-old woman, six female EMHCs giving Communion, homilies with a string of jokes to make the people feel good about Father being cool, and — if you’re lucky — giant puppets in the processions.
Never been to a Mass like that in my life.
So what? As long as you are obeying, so what?
Thank you Archbishop for being a good shepherd. We seem to see the messages of Our Blessed Mother at Akita, Japan (approved by the local bishop in 1984) unfolding in front of our eyes:
“ The work of the devil will infiltrate even into the Church in such a way that one will see cardinals opposing cardinals, bishops against bishops. The priests who venerate me will be scorned and opposed by their confreres … churches and altars sacked; the Church will be full of those who accept compromises and the demon will press many priests and consecrated souls to leave the service of the Lord … ”
If you read the letter and want to know what questions the bishops were asked they are here:
https://fsspx.news/en/news-events/news/vatican-questions-bishops-place-extraordinary-rite-57969
People, read the motu proprio before you comment here. The anonymouses who are saying that the TLM is not allowed at regular parishes anymore are correct.
The bishop: “is to designate one or more locations where the faithful adherents of these groups may gather for the eucharistic celebration (not however in the parochial churches and without the erection of new personal parishes);”
And the guy who said the readings must be in English/vernacular is correct: “to establish at the designated locations the days on which eucharistic celebrations are permitted using the Roman Missal promulgated by Saint John XXIII in 1962. [7] In these celebrations the readings are proclaimed in the vernacular language, using translations of the Sacred Scripture approved for liturgical use by the respective Episcopal Conferences;”
And they are also correct that the pope wants the TLM to be discontinued in favor of the Church unified in celebrating the Novus Ordo.
Those are new liturgical laws.
The parishes who have FSSP priests and people are able to attend the TLM Mass, and not have to travel an hour or more to attend are very blessed. This very beautiful form of the Mass, celebrated for centuries, and no matter what country you attend one of these beautiful Masses it is the same. The reverence given is wonderful to be a part of – knowing the Mass is about Christ – the attention is on Him and not the priest and how popular he is or what funny jokes he can tell, or how great the music/singing is that one can clap like at a concert afterward. The Novus Ordo Masses are not the same even within a city; each parish is different. In Francis’ letter he talks about liturgical abuses – there have been so many throughout the years in the Novus Ordo masses and they continue. How many can one say has taken place at a TLM Mass? How is eliminating the TLM (seems to be the ultimate goal) bringing about the “unity” Francis also referred to? I see much more disunity than ever between the already divided groups of Mass attendees, no matter which form they go to. Leaving it up to each individual bishop to decide – how is that unifying with all the different bishops who are also politically different? As if the great divisions in our country today are not enough, and all the turmoil and chaos in our world is not enough – now this great upheaval in our Catholic Church. These are indeed dark times. St Michael the Archangel, defend us in battle – as we are definitely in battle today.
Blessed Virgin Mary, all the Apostles, all the Popes and martyrs, all saints, pray for us to our Lord Jesus Christ that He, Eternal Truth, will reign in the hearts of all people but especially all Catholics. May all who are tempted to sin because of this or any other action of the Holy Father or any Bishop, be given the grace to avoid that sin and the grace to root out error, pride and anger. May we be given patience to bear with each other, for we all fall short in many ways.
Holy Spirit, pour out upon us Your gifts of Wisdom, Fortitude, Knowledge and Understanding.
The Austrian Catholic site kath.net has a terrific insight in the article by Franz Otterbeck in liturgy cut down. Here’s my favorite quote: Francis ignores the central problem: the emaciation and disappearance of the liturgy of the “novus ordo” in several parts of the world, especially in German-speaking countries. what is the point of the strictly uniform celebration sacraments of the Church if no one is participating anymore?”. (Translation from German via Google translate)
That’s not a novus ordo problem, sir.
Why are trads so selfish that they want things only their way or they leave the church for the SSPX?
Moderator: Today, you have 33 postings, and 17 of them are by “Anonymous.” In fact, “Anonymous” dominates ALL of your “Comments” sections! Shouldn’t you place a limit on this?
A lot of different people post anonymously. It’s not a name… it’s the default when no name is given.
Note that the above comment was posted “Anonymous”ly.
And what’s with the hatred of the Latin Mass. It’s scary, the obsession with doing away with people having a choice which Mass to attend. I know at my parish we had the Latin Mass every few months and believe me it was drawing more young people in. In my view Pope Francis is causing disunity by doing this.
Well you’re not the pope. Francis is.
Yes but he is causing disunity. Popes can sin you know. Many bad Popes in our past.
The pope is saying that the church must unify behind the liturgy resulting from the reforms of Vatican II. Those who want to drag their feet and refuse to accept the Church’s reformed liturgy are the ones causing division in the church.
He’s causing the disunity he claims he wants to prevent?
Ronnie: The Pope is not causing disunity; some of the folks who go to the TLM do. And this is according to many bishops worldwide who responded to the Holy See’s survey. The Pope acted in response to the results of the survey.
Moreover, and this is going to be controversial: my impression is that Diocesan-sponsored Masses in the TLM aren’t significantly where divisions are being created. Rather, you have the beloved SSPX, the beloved FSSP, and the beloved ICRSS who all exclusively celebrate the TLM. The churches run by them seem to be like silos, little islets, that may only have some marginal relations with the diocese, but otherwise have little to do with the life of the entire local church–their priest seldom if at all concelebrate at big diocesan Masses. Just speak to the Archbishop of Dijon, he’ll tell you about it. Just my humble obesrvation. Carry on, folks.
Disagree (in my humble opinion) as someone who witnessed and participated in these traditional Masses. The only ones causing problems in my view is the Pope. And Cardinal Mueller further argues:
“One may measure Pope Francis’ will to return to unity the deplored so-called “traditionalists” (i.e., those opposed to the Missal of Paul VI) against the degree of his determination to put an end to the innumerable “progressivist” abuses of the liturgy (renewed in accordance with Vatican II) that are tantamount to blasphemy. The paganization of the Catholic liturgy – which is in its essence nothing other than the worship of the One and Triune God – through the mythologization of nature, the idolatry of environment and climate, as well as the Pachamama spectacle, were rather counterproductive for the restoration and renewal of a dignified and orthodox liturgy reflective of the fulness of the Catholic faith.”
This is exactly why.
Well, Ronnie and Cardinal Mueller should have read the accompanying letter to “Traditionis custodes” where the Pope himself deplored the abuses in the celebration of the Ordinary Form. In that letter Pope Francis wrote: “In common with Benedict XVI, I deplore the fact that ‘in many places the prescriptions of the new Missal are not observed in celebration, but indeed come to be interpreted as an authorization for or even a requirement of creativity, which leads to almost unbearable distortions'”.
So, be clear on this Ronnie: It is not Pope Francis who is causing problems. What is causing problems is this antipathy, hatred, and divisiveness in the heart of many people such as yourself against the Vicar of Christ. That is the problem.
Jon, I do not hate this Pope, but I hate the disunity he is causing. Why hasn’t he done anything about the German heretical bishops and priests? Come on you can’t be that clueless as to not know what’s happening to the German catholic church. Your problem is any disagreement with this Pope is seen as hating him. I actually agree with him sometimes but he is causing massive division with this action. It comes off as spiteful and vindictive. If you can’t see there is no use discussing this any longer. Read Cardinal Mueller’s response:
https://www.thecatholicthing.org/2021/07/19/cardinal-mueller-on-the-new-tlm-restrictions/
I have already responded to this; but in case you didn’t get it, let me restate. Pope Francis has his own reasons for not responding to the German bishops as swiftly as he did with the TLM. We can only deduce that he doesn’t think that the German bishops are as strong a threat to the worldwide unity of the Church as these TLM groups are, like the beloved SSPX, FSSP, and ICRSS. I mean, how many oratories, chapels, parishes do the SSPX, FSSP, and ICRSS have worldwide? And compare that to whatever global influence of the German bishops have? Are they influential in Africa and Asia where the Church is growing? I think not. There’s your answer.
I’m fine with what Pope Francis did. If people don’t unify behind him in support of Vatican II Mass, that’s on them. They are the source of disunity. Not him.
Any reports on what happened and whoere?
History is being made as the new Protestant church soon to be known as the Traditionalist Sect is born and separates from Holy Mother Church. Archbishop Cordileone, are you with the Pope, with the Church, or against them?
Time to rename the Benedict XVI Institute the Francis Institute. Really… there’s no need for the Benedict Institute anymore.
easy peesy, just celebrate the TLM but say it identifies as Novus Ordo.
Very interesting to watch a schism occur in the church in real time. I never thought I’d live to see the day myself.
And the hypocrisy of it all, too. According to the schismatics, being Catholic is schismatic, fidelity to Tradition is unfaithful, and we must adhere to a new Mass and new catechism in order to be “Custodians of Tradition.”
The only way to be faithful today is to disobey the schismatic Anti-Church now calling faithful Catholics schismatic and deceiving them into believing the absurd lie that Catholics mustn’t believe and worship as Catholics have been doing for centuries if we want to be good Catholics.
Nope.
This is how it happens.
All heretics think they are the righteous ones, the correct ones.
All heretics think they are the righteous ones, the correct ones…Exactly and some are clueless about this description of themselves.
FYI Tradition signifies the faith as handed down from the apostles. tradition with a lower case t signifies practices that have arisen and last for generations but are not necessary for the faith. TLM adherents almost always confuse the two.
Thank you for teaching me. I never would’ve known. Is this Patrick Coffin?
I beg all of you who think that way to read the Roman Catechism also called the Catechism of Trent. It is online. Go to the Creed and read the section about “I believe in the Catholic Church” especially the section on “The Church is One.”
I implore you not to separate yourselves from the Living Vine.
This is historical. Things in the Church play out over centuries.
Did anyone see the July 15th episode of EWTN’s “The World Over?” If not, you can watch a re-run tomorrow, Mon. July 18th. Raymond Arroyo interviewed Vatican journalist, Edward Pentin, who just wrote a book, “The Next Pope.” Pentin said that the Pope’s intestinal illness, for which he received the recent surgery, is chronic, and very serious, and will probably last until life’s end. Many are now noting the possible “beginning of the end of the Francis Papacy,” in the Vatican. Also, Pentin noted, many top Church leaders do not agree with Pope Francis’ views on the Catholic faith, and believe that the Church has deteriorated a great deal, during his Papacy. It is hoped that repairs can be made, during the next Papacy. Also, many disagree with the motu proprio of Pope Francis on the Tridentine Latin Mass. Hopefully, that can be fixed too, during the next Papacy. Very good interview.
Wonder if Cardinal Sarah could be our next Pope?
More likely to be Tagle.
Cardinal Tagle is young– he just turned age 64– and is a leading “papabile” in Vatican circles.
Cardinal Sarah is now age 75, retired as Prefect of the Congregation for Divine Worship, and not much liked by the Pope for his orthodox, faithful Catholic beliefs. I think he would have made a good Pope, but sadly, all those liberal cardinals, and the Pope, would not agree. I do not know what the College of Cardinals might come up with, when they have to elect the next Pope. Anyway, Pope Francis needs our prayers for his health and well-being.
How so many of us have been thinking and wishing now for a long time.
If you just obey, you will be blessed.
Obey what…confusion?
Obey God, especially the Son of God, Jesus Christ in the Gospels including Luke 10:16
“Whoever listens to you listens to me. Whoever rejects you rejects me. And whoever rejects me rejects the one who sent me.”
Obey the Church and obey the Pope.
Obey your bishop.
I love the TLM. I don’t hate the NO. I don’t hate Vatican II. You’ll just never get me to attend adoration if the host was consecrated at a NO Mass. It has to be a TLM host. You’ll just never get me to go along with the new Mass, but I don’t hate it. I’d like the TLM to be the only Mass allowed, but I don’t hate the NO because of that, I just think it’s not as Catholic. I don’t hate it I just think it’s not what God wants.
So on the one hand Anonymous says he doesn’t “hate” the Ordinary Form; yet in the other hand he says “I will not attend adoration if the host was consecrated” in the Ordinary Form. Self-contradictory there. This is the kind of divisive sentiment that Pope Francis has written about in the new motu propio. Anonymous, you do indeed “hate” the Ordinary Form, despite your protestations to the contrary. If Christ Our Lord can humble Himself to be present in that Sacred Host consecrated in the Ordinary Form, why can’t you yourself find the humility to worship Him in that same Host? Be clear in this, Anonymous, your sentiment is not only divisive, but also hateful.
Anonymous, the hosts consecrated at both forms of the Roman Rite (and all Catholic rites) are Jesus, Body, Blood Soul and Divinity.
it has to be what God wants. The Holy Spirit would not have allowed it otherwise. Once a missal is promulgated by a Pope it is the Will of God. Jesus said “Whatever you declare bound on earth, will be declared bound in Heaven.”
It is like when you tell your kid he can pick whatever ice cream flavor he wants. His will then becomes your will. I get it is a trivial analogy, but I am trying to be direct.
Anonymous 7-18 @ 10:05
I am wondering about your reason for not attending a Eucharistic Adoration if the host was consecrated at a Mass-only a TLM host (which I presume means consecrated during a TLM Mass or by a priest using Latin for the words of consecration?)
Truth Seeker — you made so may good comments.
Anonymous — this comment is great — you should own up to it. “easy peesy, just celebrate the TLM but say it identifies as Novus Ordo”.
Truth Seeker: Correction — “so many…”
Jawohl Mein Fuhrer!! Obey and ill be blessed.
Obedience is a part of humility.
Just cancel the TLM so we can all move on to more important things.
Editor: why were all my posts taken out of this article that were previously there?
So were mine. Strange.
State Sen. Joseph Cervantes of Las Cruces, NM, a Democrat and a “bad Catholic politician” — a very strong Abortion supporter throughout his career— was told multiple times by the Bishop of Las Cruces, Bp. Peter Baldacchino, not to present himself for Holy Communion. The pastor of his church likewise informed him of this, multiple times. So, when he attended a recent special Mass at the Carmelite Monastery in Las Cruces, the priest denied him Communion– and he got mad! What a shame, that our Archbishop cannot do likewise, in the case of Rep. Nancy Pelosi, and many other “bad Catholic” politicians of our Archdiocese!
Your archbishop did.
No, Anonymous– the SF Archbishops, including our current one, never warned “bad Catholic” politicians not to present themselves for Communion, and never denied them Holy Communion.
I’ve been so angry the past few days. My TLM was taken away but Joe Biden gets to go to Communion and be the president. Where’s the justice in that? Tell me? Tell me? Anyone? It’s not worth it. It’s just not anymore.
Anger is one of the seven deadly sins. It also indicates pride and self-will. I will pray for you.
Righteous anger is permissible and even laudable when accompanied by a reasonable desire to inflict justifiable punishment. Christ himself was filled with righteous anger against the vendors who had desecrated the house of God. Such anger is allowable only if it tends to punish those who deserve punishment, according to the measure of their guilt, and with the sincere intention to redress what harm may have been done or to correct the wrongdoer. Otherwise the anger is sinfully excessive. The necessary provision is always that there is no tinge of hatred and no desire for revenge.
Misuse of Anger is one of the seven deadly sins. “Righteous Anger” is not a sin.
It was only 7 months back in December of 2020 that the holy father attended a festive mass in St Peter’s,gushing about the vibrancy of the Zairian rite that is of recent minting. He suggested that it could ” serve as a model for the possible elaboration of an Amazonian rite,without upsetting the nature of the Roman missal.”. On this topic, cardinal Mueller pointed out a slight difficulty…that the Amazon people’s have more than 300 languages. A possible solution,he suggested could be found with a liturgy such as that of Pius V, with Latin as the unifying tongue. The indigenous people of Oaxaca,Mexico became very proficient in Latin it is recorded,excelling in a way that frightened their mission overseers who then stopped Latin lessons out of concern they were becoming intellectually superior to them
Drewelow, before Vatican II, when the Mass was in Latin, people did not know Latin. They had missals that translated it into English. A lot of people just prayed their rosary or sat there with the Lord while the priest and the altar boy did their part.
I wish that, as a Church, we had more opportunity to learn Latin. And to learn Chant.
Anonymous, a long time ago, before the Vatican II Council in the 1960s, everyone used to take both Latin and Greek in high school, plus, many took a modern foreign language, too. People were better educated, and kids studied more in school. TV became popular in the early 1950s– not the best thing for kids in school! And Catholics attending Mass were not all distracted, praying the Rosary, etc.– just a few did that. Many were very devout, attentive to the Mass. The old Latin Mass meant a lot to lots of Catholics, worldwide, of all countries and cultures. It was beautiful and holy, filled with many graces, and the Divine miracle of Christ on the altar at Transubstantiation. Most Catholics were very proud of their Church and their Mass! About 80% of Catholics were at Mass on Sundays. Many attended Catholic school, and almost all were well-catechized– unlike today. The Fathers of the Council were well-meaning, but the post-Conciliar Church was almost destroyed, sadly.
In areas where there were Catholic high schools or boarding schools in the US in modern times, that may have been true. A lot of people never got to go to high school. People with 5th grade or 8th grade educations were common when I was growing up. I remember people hated Latin. I remember parents being glad that their kids were no longer going to have to learn that. Now many Catholic and even public schools teach Latin.
Anonymous, a long time ago, “people with 5th grade or 8th grade educations”– as you say– were often much-better educated than kids today, with Master’s degrees! President Abraham Lincoln was one of them, with only a couple of years of formal schooling. The intellectual level of the American public used to be much higher! Many immigrants to America also were often fluent in several languages. Latin was not a hard language for anyone, in church. Latin is also used in science, law, and medicine, besides religion and philosophy. It is one of the huge foundations of Western Culture.
You don’t have to be in the intellectual elite class of gifted people, to be able to have a good working knowledge of many subjects, and be really good at it. A hundred years ago, a man who owned a farm or worked in the mines, could be really good at understanding his Catholic Catechism, and Latin, in church. He might be the leader of his local Knights of Columbus group or lead the Legion of Mary, at his church. And he could teach religion really well, to his children. The child visionaries of Fatima had little education, but they were very intelligent, and knew and understood lots of things.
One great way to learn Latin pronunciation is to go to a Traditional Latin Mass where Latin is actually used, and listen and read, comparing the vernacular side with the Latin side in ones missal. A high mass with chant is an especially good way to learn how to pronounce Latin as it is sung slowly. We can do it on line now and with books unless they try to suppress those.
Cardinal Gerhard Muller, former Prefect of the Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith, was very displeased with the Pope’s motu proprio, “Traditionis Custodes.” He stated, “instead of appreciating the smell of the sheep, the shepherd here hits them hard with his crook.” Then he stated, “The unity of believers with one another is rooted in unity in God through faith, hope and love, and has nothing to do with uniformity in appearance, the lockstep of a military formation, or the groupthink of the big-tech age.” Cardinal Mueller wrote a long article on this subject. You can find it online at “The Catholic Thing,” for July 19, 2021. Very excellent! http://www.thecatholicthing.org/2021/07/19/cardinal-mueller-on-the-new-tlm-restrictions/
Thanks for the link.
Before commenting each day I suggest following Dr. K’s example:
“I would die—dry up spiritually—if I did not start my day apart from my online work. I’ve tried to erect barriers and boundaries to it. When I get up in the morning, before any device goes on, I pray Prime and read some Scripture; I go to Mass most days, and I take other breaks during the day to say Terce, Sext, or None (or all three if I can manage) so that I can maintain perspective and not lose my peace altogether—or lose my awareness of the one and only relationship that ultimately matters, the One on whom everything else depends. Br. Lawrence of the Resurrection called it “the practice of the presence of God.” — Dr. Peter Kwasniewski
Fr. Richard Perozxich, thank you for posting this wonderful advice. I will print it and put it on my keyboard every night before bed.
Dr. K is a schismatic. He has openly told people to disobey Traditionis Custodes and he has openly called for the suppression of the Novus Ordo Mass. Nobody should be listening to him. He doesn’t realize the role he played in causing the pope to clamp down on the TLM. People like Dr. K are just the sort who reject Vatican II that the pope had in mind when he said no more TLM in the church.
Kwasniewski doesn’t call for schismatic disobedience. As a matter of fact, he believes that acting upon Traditionis Custodes actually risks committing sins *against* ecclesial communion. His words: “Given its systemic weaknesses, those who do act upon it risk committing sins of imprudence and injustice, sins against charity and ecclesial communion.”
And calling for the suppression of the Novus Ordo doesn’t = schism. That is so ridiculous. Whatever ‘church’ defines schism that way is not the Catholic Church.
Schismatics always believe they are being faithful to the true church. They always believe their disobedience is more righteous than obedience would be. Same as it ever was.
Do you believe you’re “being faithful to the true church?” And are even you being faithful to the Council of Trent and Quo Primum? Nothing infallibly declared can be overturned by a little motu proprio, especially when it’s written by a doubtful pope.
This is the problem.
N., this is part of the problem. Schismatics or those influenced by them, quote old documents or even a sentence in an old document and confuse people.
Read the Catechism of Trent.
Quo Primum is an apostolic constitution. It is the most solemn form of legislative notice. Quo primum was issued in 1570. It contains warnings against messing with the Missal which traditionalists misconstrue to invalidate the Missal of Paul VI.
A moto proprio is not little. They are next in solemnity after an apostolic constitution.
If you are doubtful about the Pope, you are not faithful to the Council of Trent.
https://www.peterkwasniewski.com/about
I do not believe he is a schismatic. This is the first (or second) time I have ever heard of him.
I do not see anything schismatic in his bio.
Dr. Peter Kwasnewski, an excellent Tridentine Latin Mass promoter, is an outstanding scholar, professor, and sacred choral music choirnaster and composer. His sacred choral works are absolutely beautiful! It is amazing to me, that he is so young, born in 1971, after the Second Vatican Council! He is a traditional Catholic, a fine scholar and has a great deal to offer the Church. He always is sharp with critiques of immorality and “wrongdoings” in the Church! A true voice for the true Faith! The Church is very blessed with him!
Dr. Peter Kwasnewski, an excellent Tridentine Latin Mass promoter, is an outstanding scholar, professor, and sacred choral music choirnaster and composer. His sacred choral works are absolutely beautiful! It is amazing to me, that he is so young, born in 1971, after the Second Vatican Council! He is a traditional Catholic, a fine scholar and has a great deal to offer the Church. He always is sharp with critiques of immorality and “wrongdoings” in the Church! A true voice for the true Faith! The Church is very blessed to have him!
Somehow, strangely, my post of July 20th at 3:16pm, got printed twice. Well, I wish to add one more thing. It is just miserable, to be involved with the Church, if the leader or teacher of anything you are involved with, is a “bad Catholic”– or a non-Catholic– leading a sinful life. And you don’t want your kids around such people, either. Wonderful that Dr. Peter Kwasniewski is a fine scholar, a fine musician– and a tremendous blessing to any Catholic college or church. Just what you want, for your kids– to take a university course, or join one of his fine choirs.
This is part of the problem. People are following sheep rather than the shepherd.
Anonymous– There is only One Shepherd to follow–Christ, the Good Shepherd, the Son of God, and Second Person of the Blessed Trinity.
The Pope is the Vicar of Christ.
The pope is the Vicar of Christ, who sometimes commits sin. We all know this. Do not blindly follow a pope like a baby. Follow the Catholic Faith intelligently– God first, always.
Why is he praying Prime?
Has this occurred to anyone else:
That the moto proprio is an obedience test.
In orders, postulants and novices are given assignments that will test their obedience.
The German priests disobeyed the Vatican.
I hope those who love the TLM will show their virtue by obeying.
People can disagree with the Pope I believe except when he speaks ex cathedra (from the Chair) on matters of Faith or Morals, his word is infallible and binding, guided by the Holy Spirit. If it is a political statement (like how best to address an issue), a matter of personal opinion, etc. then we can feel free to disagree.
You can disagree but you still have to obey. See how that works?
What’s with your obsession with obedience? I think you’re confused.
No Ronnie, you’re the one who is confused. Obedience is a virtue. Our Lord meticulously obeyed the Father in all things setting for us all an example. If you, Ronnie, cannot find yourself to obey your spiritual father, the Pope, whom you can see; how can you ever obey Our Heavenly Father Whom you cannot see?
jon, Christ said that the Sabbath was made for mam, not man for the sabbath. He got in trouble with Jewish authorities at times when He occasionally broke Jewish Laws for very good reasons– to help people. He always served God first. You have to listen, above all, to the guidance of God.
Anon. says “you have to listen above all of the guidance of God.” The question becomes where do you listen for God. Well, let me tell you. God has chosen the Church to continue His work on earth. And the Church has only one visible head, the Pope. If you listen to the Pope, you’re getting God’s guidance on earth. The Pope has judged that the TLM goers are causing division in the Church. That’s, in effect, God’s guiding voice, right there, through his Vicar.
Jon…What if the Pope sins, like he can, do we have to obey him then? And if he’s the one causing disunity? Many bad Popes in the past how to explain that?