Bishops congratulate proponents of initiative that would end death penalty in California

The following is a March 1 news release from the California Catholic Conference, the public policy arm of the state’s bishops.

The following statement was issued by the Most Rev. Gerald Wilkerson, auxiliary bishop for the San Fernando Pastoral Region of the Archdiocese of Los Angeles and president of the California Catholic Conference of Bishops on news that “Safe California” has collected 800,000 signatures on their petition for a November ballot measure asking voters to replace the state’s death penalty:

“We congratulate the SAFE California campaign upon reaching their goal of collecting enough signatures to assure there will be a proposition on California’s November ballot to replace the death penalty with the sentence of Life Without the Possibility of Parole.

“We were pleased to have participated in this effort by encouraging our parishioners to collect signatures and are gratified that we could join the many other individuals and groups who helped the sponsors of this initiative. We would like to personally thank all the Catholic volunteers who stepped forward and worked hard on the effort.

“Now, in November, California’s voters will be offered the chance to make this prudent, life-affirming, safety-enhancing and cost-savings change in sentencing law. Moreover, passing this initiative will prevent the execution of an innocent person.

“We look forward to the SAFE California campaign as a time when the voting public can learn of the wisdom of replacing the sentence of death with the sentence of life imprisonment.”


Posted Friday, March 02, 2012 5:28 AM By Ski Ven
What about outlawing the extra-judicial killings that are instigated by virtue of a woman’s private authority? Why does the law grant, in situations that do not involve legitimate self defense, one class of private individuals the right to decide that someone else must die, but deprives other classes of private individuals that same right? What happened to equality under the law?

Posted Friday, March 02, 2012 5:39 AM By Sandra
and we can’t get enough signatures for SB 48, or parental notification, or to end abortion–by let’s save murderers–now that’s something we can all get behind?

Posted Friday, March 02, 2012 6:53 AM By Janet
Maybe the bishop could get behind the Parental Notification Initiative now! More lives are lost through abortion – unjustly – than through the death sentence.

Posted Friday, March 02, 2012 8:59 AM By Grandmother for Life
The California Catholic Conference seems to have worked hard at getting Catholic parishioners to sign the ACLU “SAFE California” petition on the repeal of the death penalty. In the meantime the lifetime negative damage to tens of thousands of young girls who have secret abortions, and the death penalty for unborn babies who are the victims of secret abortions, continues. Now that the Church effort on the ACLU’s death penalty repeal initiative is over, will the effort to collect signatures for the parental notification initiative become a real, effective campaign to successfully qualify the initiative for the November ballot now that the CCC campaign to qualify the prudential initiative to repeal the death penalty is successfully accomplished? If there are not sufficient signatures gathered to qualify the constitutional amendment initiative to ban secret abortions performed on tens of thousands of young girls, what kind of news release will the CCC send out? Who will they blame?

Posted Friday, March 02, 2012 9:00 AM By JMJ
What about the death penalty called ABORTION? +JMJ+

Posted Friday, March 02, 2012 9:47 AM By Abeca Christian
I’m angered by this. Ending the death penalty here in CA tells us gay marriage will succeed, that parental notification may fail, that democrats will continue to run this state etc. This is why I pray for this state and our churches here, because we have too much corruption and many of our priests and bishops seem lukewarm to me!

Posted Friday, March 02, 2012 9:49 AM By Abeca Christian
With all pleasure I will vote against it. Our church leaders are wrong in this matter, I will not stand by them on this. St. Thomas Aquinas pray for us!

Posted Friday, March 02, 2012 10:16 AM By Abeca Christian
Warning folks, the evil one is once again throwing in another distraction to stop us from staying focused on the real things that matter. Parental Notification is again trying to survive and the evil one has brought in it’s big guns once again to distract us. Watch October Baby which is coming to theaters soon, stay focused on helping parental notification become a reality and stay away from this evil SAFE California Campaign which is nothing about safety but only a great big mistake!

Posted Friday, March 02, 2012 10:54 AM By Maria
@Janet: Hear, hear!!! The Parental Notification Initiative should be receiving all the support it can get from Bishop Wilkerson and brother bishops. The time for our bishops to distinguish themselves as true apostles of Christ is NOW. The hour is late and the perils are great. Praying for true heroes to emerge in our Church who are willing to risk everything for Jesus Christ and leave behind the empty honours, corruptive influence and treacherous acknowledgements of the Culture of Death.

Posted Friday, March 02, 2012 11:06 AM By Clinton
How many inmates were put to death in California in 2011? How many unborn children were put to death in California in 2011? The Church really needs to prioritize its focus. The death penalty is not causing moral erosion in this state, nor is it the cause of the death sentence being passed against those in the womb who never had a trial.

Posted Friday, March 02, 2012 12:09 PM By jon
This is wonderful news. I pray that the Catholic faithful in my state of California will take this great opportunity to repeal a form of punishment which Pope John Paul II had called “cruel and unnecessary,” and which his successor Pope Benedict has called for the abolition of its present use. I hope that the faithful in California will adhere to the teachings of the Catechism on this issue, because presently the death penalty is NOT the “only possible way of effectively defending human lives against the unjust aggressor.” (CCC, 2267)

Posted Friday, March 02, 2012 12:58 PM By James Howard
This is a horrible and monstrous abomination to me. How about outlawing the killing, the capital punishment, of INNOCENT unborn babies instead of NOT-so-innocent murderers! This is such a confused and stupid and crazy and dysfunctional liberal culture that never gets it priorities right. The unborn are innocent and they are killed by the thousands daily and these idiots are worried about killing people who are like Manson. Murderers, especially mass murderers, are evil and deserve death. A child does not.

Posted Friday, March 02, 2012 1:44 PM By Peggy
Since 1976, there have been 1473 executions nationwide. Remember, those executed have committed heinous crimes…. Every day there are 4,000+ babies aborted. Remember, these are innocent lives….

Posted Friday, March 02, 2012 1:45 PM By Laurette Elsberry
Interesting fact: This morning’s Sacramento Bee article on the ACLU death penalty initiative pointed out that the death penalty is supported by Sacramento County District Attorney Jan Scully. Ms. Scully is a Catholic, a graduate of Loretto High School. I bet there are many other DAs who support the death penalty. It is NOT a sin to do so!

Posted Friday, March 02, 2012 3:03 PM By jon
I reject as incredibly false the notion that because the repeal of the death penalty may pass, that gay marriage may pass as well. This position is unsupported, it is false, and it is another symptom of the pernicious spread, even among Catholics, of the philosophy of the culture of death.

Posted Friday, March 02, 2012 3:40 PM By SoCal
Are the bishops so blind that they do not see what is happening in this country. They continue to focus on matters of prudential judgment and ignore blatant promotion of intrinsic evils. I had started to gain hope after the recent show of backbone by the USCCB, but I guess it’s going to be back to business as usual.

Posted Friday, March 02, 2012 4:02 PM By Abeca Christian
Clinton and James Howard awesome comments! Again jon is incorrect!

Posted Friday, March 02, 2012 4:22 PM By Abeca Christian
“If we execute murderers and there is in fact no deterrent effect, we have killed a bunch of murderers. If we fail to execute murderers, and doing so would in fact have deterred other murders, we have allowed the killing of a bunch of innocent victims. I would much rather risk the former. This, to me, is not a tough call.” John McAdams – Marquette University/Department of Political Science, on deterrence

Posted Friday, March 02, 2012 4:24 PM By Abeca Christian
In 1965, Robert Massie murdered mother of two Mildred Weiss in San Gabriel, Calif., during a follow-home robbery. Hours before execution, a stay was issued so Massie could testify against his accomplice. Massie’s sentence was commuted to life when the Supreme Court halted executions in 1972. Receiving an undeserved second chance, Massie was paroled, but eight months later robbed and murdered businessman Boris Naumoff in San Francisco.

Posted Friday, March 02, 2012 4:30 PM By Abeca Christian
Watch Cary Ann Medlin story on YouTube. She was raped and murdered. Her murderer was angered the more when she said “Jesus loves you”. So he killed her.

Posted Friday, March 02, 2012 4:42 PM By Abeca Christian
Augustine recognized the death penalty as a means of deterring the wicked and protecting the innocent. In the Middle Ages, Thomas Aquinas reaffirmed this position.

Posted Friday, March 02, 2012 5:06 PM By Abeca Christian
From our current Pope from his book Worthiness to Receive Holy Communion – General Principles.”Not all moral issues have the same moral weight as abortion and euthanasia. For example, if a Catholic were to be at odds with the Holy Father on the application of capital punishment or on the decision to wage war, he would not for that reason be considered unworthy to present himself to receive Holy Communion. While the Church exhorts civil authorities to seek peace, not war, and to exercise discretion and mercy in imposing punishment on criminals, it may still be permissible to take up arms to repel an aggressor or to have recourse to capital punishment. There may be a legitimate diversity of opinion even among Catholics about waging war and applying the death penalty, but not however with regard to abortion and euthanasia.”

Posted Friday, March 02, 2012 5:12 PM By Abeca Christian
Fr. John A. Hardon, S.J.on Catholic Culture org website gives an excellent article titled The Legitimacy of Capital Punishment.

Posted Friday, March 02, 2012 5:14 PM By Doug
Sadly, California like nearly all of the 50 states are nearly unrestricted in declaring the death penalty and executing nearly 1.6 million death sentences nation-wide annually. Yes many cold and heartless souls are in favor of the execution of our most precious blessings from Heaven, blessings that could give us more happiness than we will ever know, yet those same many will march and picket in the streets to stop the death penalty executions of convicted murders who deserved their sentence of death. Does anyone see the insanity of all this? Just for our sickening american society’s knowledge, those especially who want the US to become more like Europe, the news announced that Netherlands now has mobile euthanasia services. Its true! How long will it be before we follow suit here in the USA? We need to pray for our country its all head over heels, and it won’t stop until we return to being a christian nation under God with His 10 Commandment obeyed and justice for all.

Posted Friday, March 02, 2012 8:28 PM By jon
The CDF Letter just quoted does not excuse dissenting from the Pope’s judgment, including his judgment that the present use of the death penalty be abolished. This is the teaching of the Pope and it is echoed in the Catechism when it teaches that only if the death penalty is the only possible means to defend society may it be used (2267). What the CDF Letter is basically saying is that supporters of the death penalty, unlike supporters of abortion, are not in cooperation of an intrinsic evil, and for that reason alone they may receive Communion. The CDF Letter does not excuse dissent among Catholics with respect to this important teaching on morals, this teaching on the culture of life! Listen to the living Magisterium! Respect life!

Posted Friday, March 02, 2012 9:29 PM By Anton L.Seidl
I never thought I would see the day when the Catholic Church joined forces with one of the most anti-religious organizations in this country: The ACLU! Clearly one of the forces of evil in this evil century. Sleeping with dogs – don’t be surprised to wake up with fleas! Shame on our bishops.

Posted Friday, March 02, 2012 11:11 PM By John Feeney
If the Apostles had behaved like the current American Bishops, there would not be Roman Catholic Church.

Posted Saturday, March 03, 2012 9:40 AM By MacDonald
Lots of people in here out for blood. Hmm. Reminds me of a film we saw in high school, “The Lottery,” based on a short story by Shirley Jackson in 1948. Human beings seem to like the kill, no matter what Jesus says about it. “You have heard it said, ‘you shall not kill,’ but I tell you…” (Matthew 5:21)

Posted Saturday, March 03, 2012 11:26 AM By Laurette Elsberry
Anton L. Seidl, your statements are absolutely on target. What a shame that we Catholics consort with those who hate us and love abortion passionately.

Posted Saturday, March 03, 2012 12:06 PM By Allan Wafkowski
The historically recent opposition to the death penalty by some in the Catholic Church is a sign of our insanely evil times. We live in an age where evil and innocence are seen as one and the same. The long-held Catholic belief in regard to capital punishment is difficult to impress on those who oppose it from sentimentality because they are not using reason or listening to the 2000 years of Catholic teaching on the subject.

Posted Saturday, March 03, 2012 12:52 PM By Felice
they need to tie this effort for life with that of innocents in the womb too…

Posted Saturday, March 03, 2012 1:30 PM By k
Allan Wafkowski, you are correct that this is historically recent. It is the teaching of Pope John Paul II and Pope Benedict XVI. Some misrepresent the Church’s opposition to the death penalty. The Church, while holding to Tradition which teaches that states have a right to inflict the death penalty, has asked the nations to limit the use of it to those rare circumstances where the innocent cannot be protected in any other way, and through the United Nations, has even asked them to abolish it.

Posted Saturday, March 03, 2012 1:54 PM By MARKRITE
I’m TOTALLY IN AGREEMENT with Abeca Christian in her brilliant reasoning and arguments for RETAINING the death penalty, and I would say, if not said here before, that if even ONE INNOCENT LIFE has been spared through the application of this law IT HAS BEEN WORTH IT. And isn’t that the R’AISON D’ETRE for the original passage of the death penalty? To SAVE INNOCENT HUMAN LIFE from the dpradations of those who chose to MURDER THEIR VICTIMS either in the course of a robbery or in the commission of rape, etc.? Especially in the case of premeditated killing,I.E., LYING IN WAIT for your victim, etc., so it seems that anyone who commits a heinous crime of murder like this FORFEITS THEIR RIGHT TO LIFE, LIBERTY & THE PURSUIT OF HAPPINESS. And as has been noted by others here, the OVER 4,000 INNOCENT PREBORNS KILLED DAILY in the land of the free (& easy) have MUCH MORE NEED OF PROTECTION than those who’ve deprived blameless victims of their God-given right to life. GOD BLESS ALL, MARKRITE

Posted Saturday, March 03, 2012 3:21 PM By jon
Allan Wafkowski is totally wrong. The 2,000-year Catholic teaching on this subject is articulated in the Catechism. Read it for yourself: “the traditional teaching of the Church does not exclude recourse to the death penalty, if this is the only possible way of effectively defending human lives against the unjust aggressor” (2267). Note that only if the death penalty is the way to deter capital criminals may this penalty be used. The judgment of the Popes John Paul and Benedict is that we now have non-lethal means to deter criminals without violating human dignity by terminating their lives when other means of deterrence are available. This is about respecting life. Believe in the Gospel of Life!

Posted Saturday, March 03, 2012 6:12 PM By Brian S
Allan, the “historically recent” opposition to the death penalty is not led “by some”, but by the current Pope as it was by his immediate predecessor, Blessed John Paul II. Do you intend your characterization of “sentimentality” and accusations of lack of reason and deafness to Catholic teaching to apply to them?

Posted Sunday, March 04, 2012 8:49 AM By Mark from PA
I am listening to you Jon but I don’t think that you are getting through to the pro-death-penalty crowd. Thank you for standing up for the culture of life.

Posted Sunday, March 04, 2012 1:50 PM By Brian S
MARKRITE, Darrell Mease laid in wait for his victims, he dressed in camouflage and hid in a hunting blind he had built for the purpose in order to kill Lloyd Lawrence, his wife, and their grandson, a 19-year-old paraplegic. He finished the three off by shooting them each in the face. Yet, John Paul II did not determine that he should forfeit his life, instead the Holy Father directly requested then-Missouri governor Mel Carnahan to commute his sentence to life imprisonment, which Carnahan did. Can you be so sure of the righteousness of your conclusions, and so quick to accuse John Paul II of bad judgement? Do you suppose John Paul was ever less committed to the fight against abortion because he opposed the death penalty, even when, as in this instance, it was applied to the most vicious of killers?

Posted Sunday, March 04, 2012 6:06 PM By Abeca Christian
Allan Wafkowski not only are you intelligent on what you commented but you also know the faith and are a genuine person who does not dissent. You’re post was not a personal opinion of yours but only stated facts!

Posted Sunday, March 04, 2012 6:21 PM By Allan Wafkowski
It must be understood that the primary reason for the death penalty is punishment, NOT to ensure the safety of the community. The reason for punishment is to punish. The truth of that statement is based on scriptural teachings. When it was spoken of in the past, every pope before John Paul II taught that. Every doctor of the church taught that. Every saint taught it. I suggest that doubters read St. Augustine and St. Aquinas for exacting arguments on why it is so and why it must be so. The CCC is not an infallible document. Good grief, changes have already been made to the first edition, necessitated by what amounts to errors. The CCC is a compendium of general Catholic knowledge and is prudently used as a starting point, not an end in itself. Pope John Paul II departed from hundreds of years of doctrinal teachings to arrive at his novel ideas about capital punishment. The section about capital punishment in the CCC is unsupported with references. If you dig a bit deeper you will find that the only implied reference is a talk Pope JP II himself made.

Posted Sunday, March 04, 2012 7:50 PM By Mark from PA
Abeca Christian, how do you interpret what Pope John Paul II and Pope Benedict XVI have said regarding the death penalty?

Posted Sunday, March 04, 2012 8:15 PM By k
The Catholic Church, the Holy Fathers, have called us to defend and protect human life, each human life.

Posted Sunday, March 04, 2012 8:25 PM By jon 
On the issue of the death penalty, the faith is expressed in the Catechism. The faith is expressed in the homilies, Encyclicals, messages, and speeches of the popes. The faith is expressed in the support of the bishops to the Pope’s teaching on the death penalty.

Posted Sunday, March 04, 2012 10:45 PM By Abeca Christian
PA the only reason jon is not getting through to us, it is because we know the teachings on this matter, we don’t follow a person’s personal interpretation or sentiments on the matter but we know that both sides are acceptable views, the faithful have the freedom to form their conscience on whether they want to support or not support the death penalty! The issue that jon is causing is that he is mistaken by saying that the church is calling to an end of it when that is not the real teachings from mother church but only personal views!

Posted Sunday, March 04, 2012 11:21 PM By k
Allan Wafkowski, what you say is true and I have been trying to research whether Pope John Paul II did something he should not have done. It was not a speech that the CCC is based on, though. It is from Evangelium, Vitae-the Gospel of Life, which came out after the first edition of the Cathechism. Not all Scripture and Tradition support the use of the death penalty. Pope John Paul II uses Genesis 4:14-27 to show how God avenged the killing of Abel and protected Cain from retribution. He also uses a teaching from St. Ambrose to show that the early Church Fathers did not support capital punishment. He completely holds to the teaching of the Church on capital punishment, but he advances it. What I am trying to look into is whether these justifications for capital punishment: punishment, deterrence, social safety and justice were doctrine or just moral theology which is not doctrine. This doctrine has not changed-that states have the right to use capital punishment. The sanctity of human life has become the predominant issue of our time-abortion, cloning, euthenatia, embryonic stem cell research. It is of paramount importance that the Church teach the sanctity of life and the dignity of the human person. I think it is this global crisis which has altered the circumstances and the Pope’s thinking on the issue of capital punishment. Thank you for joining the discussion. You are intelligent and faithful. I appreciate you contribution and would be grateful for any sources that you know of on this subject.

Posted Sunday, March 04, 2012 11:59 PM By MIKE
Alan W – you are wrong about the CCC. “ The Catechism of the Catholic Church, which I approved … and the publication of which I today order by virtue of my Apostolic Authority, is a statement of the Church’s faith and of catholic doctrine, attested to or illumined by Sacred Scripture, the Apostolic Tradition and the Church’s Magisterium. I declare it to be a sure norm for teaching the faith and thus a valid and legitimate instrument for ecclesial communion. “ – Pope John Paul II (pg 5). Revenge has never been approved by Jesus. The death penalty should only be used to protect the lives of others. If the death penalty is banned, it can not be used to protect the lives of others. Abeca is correct.

Posted Monday, March 05, 2012 12:45 AM By Pauline
The Bishops need to teach the CCC in its entirety, not their own political hot buttons. Do you think this is why many of them do not actively promote the reading of the CCC? Socialised medicine (Obamacare), continuation and support of ILLEGAL immigration, fake Global Warming, etc – are all personal polticial opinions of the Bishops that have helped to make a mess of this Country. When Bishops differ from the CCC in its entirety, they lose Souls. People will not follow those who are not 100% accurate.

Posted Monday, March 05, 2012 4:23 AM By Ski Ven
The lives of prison guards, babies, and murder victims are less equal than others. The lives of homosexuals, bisexuals, and pedophiles are more equal than others.

Posted Monday, March 05, 2012 6:48 AM By Allan Wafkowski
There are important theological reasons why capital punishment is morally allowable. In God’s plan the civil order is a separate entity from the ecclesiastical–render unto Caesar the things of Caesar and to God the things of God. This is not an accident, but is willed by God. Civil authority has the right and privilege of passing and enforcing laws because it is an authority given to it by God. When the civil authority acts it acts not as an assembly of individuals, but with the authority of God. Like the authority given to the Catholic Church by God when the Keys were passed to Peter, the Civil authority acts in the stead of God himself. It’s judgements are the judgements of God, not that of a motley group of individuals. As God punishes the evil and rewards the good ETERNALLY, the temporal authority has the same right–given to it by God–to end life for serious transgressions. The spiritual order deals with the infinite, the temporal with the finite. To lessen this link between finite and infinite causes doubt about the eternal nature of God’s punishments. It very well may be profitable to the soul to undergo death on earth to avoid death in hell.

Posted Monday, March 05, 2012 7:20 AM By MacDonald
In addition to what our most recent Popes have said AGAINST the death penalty, anyone who still longs for revenge through blood should see the play “The Exonerated” and think about how many innocent people have been killed by the State. If you are against killing an innocent person in the womb, how can you be against (the risk of) killing an innocent person outside the womb? I thank God the Church has moved me away from my former support of the death penalty.

Posted Monday, March 05, 2012 7:34 AM By jon 
The Church is most definitely calling to the end to the present use of the death penalty. No doubt about that. John Paul II had called for it numerous times during his pontificate. No one can dispute this. And Pope Benedict continues to call to an end to the death penalty. Additionally, the purpose of the death penalty, contrary to Allan Wafkowski, is to defend society. This is plainly stated in the Catechism.

Posted Monday, March 05, 2012 7:39 AM By jon 
I think the death penalty activists have to face the reality that they are not in union with the teaching of the Magisterium on this issue. The traditional teaching of the Church on this is that the death penalty may be used ONLY IF it is the only means available to stop a capital criminal from further harming society. The judgment of Popes John Paul and Benedict is that NOW there are other means to defend society without having to use the death penalty. And Catholics, per Lumen Gentium, are called to adhere to the Pontiff’s judgment.

Posted Monday, March 05, 2012 8:42 AM By RR
Quote from MarkfromPA: “I am listening to you Jon but I don’t think that you are getting through to the pro-death-penalty crowd. Thank you for standing up for the culture of life.” Maybe you should stand up for the culture of life by not voting for the most PRO-ABORTION PRESIDENT EVER in the next Presidential election.

Posted Monday, March 05, 2012 9:39 AM By Abeca Christian
Allan Wafkowski Yes you are right. Those that are against the death penalty usually steep low by adding personal attacks on the faithful who do support the death penalty. What gets me is that there is no such thing as a death penalty activist. It is a personal view one can have strong feelings on but one can hardly call it activist work. Geeze, it’s like calling God a death penalty activist. Those usage of words to describe this topic are illogical and that clearly give a good indication that my views on this are right!

Posted Monday, March 05, 2012 9:53 AM By Abeca Christian
We live in very disturbing times. Just today reading the article on after birth abortions make me feel sick and reading these comments here too. I am disturbed that people who value life so little to the point that they would defend even the most heinous of criminals that murdered innocent lives. These are dangerous times, we must protect our children even more because we have people roaming around advocating propositions that have little value to zero defense on innocent lives. No matter what the facts are or what the church has always taught, certain individuals will always find reasons to change logic views, it is no different from those who wish to re-define marriage to mean other things in which God has never intended. God have mercy!

Posted Monday, March 05, 2012 10:02 AM By Mark from PA
Ski Ven, homosexuals and bisexuals are equal to others not more equal. I think it is wrong to equate them with pedophiles. Are you suggesting that executing people who are homosexual or bisexual is licit? This has happened and does happen in some countries.

Posted Monday, March 05, 2012 11:55 AM By MacDonald
All this calling for blood reminds me of the Salem witch trials, in which some innocent people were hanged. Sarah Good, who was in dire poverty, proclaimed her innocence and said at the last: “If you take my life, God will give you blood to drink!” Once you execute someone who turns out to be innocent, it does little good to later say, “Sorry we killed your son. Better luck next time.”

Posted Tuesday, March 06, 2012 12:53 AM By Kenneth M. Fisher
If the California “bishops” had put in as much effort for the “Parental Consent” Initiative, we would probably already have enough qualifying signatures for it. These men, with perhaps a very few exceptions, are a sham on the episcopacy! God bless, yours in Their Hearts, Kenneth M. Fisher

Posted Tuesday, March 06, 2012 1:16 AM By Kenneth M. Fisher
jon, 8:25 PM. Let’s get this straight. You maintain that the statements of Pope John Paul II and Pope Benedict overide the teachings of all the Popes before them and the Doctors of the Church, even though they themselves clearly state that they do not do so. Boy I sure hope and pray that you are not presently or even in the future teaching Moral Theology ANYWHERE! God bless, yours in Their Hearts, Kenneth M. Fisher

Posted Tuesday, March 06, 2012 1:30 AM By Kenneth M. Fisher
Abeca,. Please make room for me in your boat. I am with you 100% on this one! Do you notice the same persons who are tolerant of sodomy are mostly the ones who are against the Death Penalty? God bless, yours in Their Hearts, Kenneth M. Fisher

Posted Tuesday, March 06, 2012 9:56 AM By Abeca Christian
Yes Mr Fisher I have noticed and the key word is tolerant. Thank you Mr. Fisher and as always God bless you, you are a true gentleman!

Posted Tuesday, March 06, 2012 3:11 PM By Mark from PA
I was under the impression that most people against abortion were also against the death penalty.

Posted Tuesday, March 06, 2012 4:34 PM By The Rose
Kenneth M. Fisher, I think you’re very wrong. I read jon’s comment and he has not said what you are saying. The teaching of the Church on this issue is in the Catechism, as jon has been pointing out many times, that “the traditional teaching of the Church does not exclude recourse to the death penalty, if this is the only possible way of effectively defending human lives against the unjust aggressor” (CCC 2267). Note the clause “if this is the only possible way…” This is the TRADITIONAL moral teaching of the Church. John Paul II and Benedict XVI have judged that society now has other means to defend human lives against an unjust aggressor without having to use the death penalty. Instead of contradicting the Tradition, John Paul and Benedict have actually defined what the present state of affairs is, a present state in which the Gospel of Life is better served when the current use of the death penalty is put to an end because society now has other means to defend itself without recourse to the death penalty.

Posted Tuesday, March 06, 2012 5:21 PM By Abeca Christian
Thank you Mr. Fisher but the editor found it necessary to censor my rebuttal to MacDonald’s error filled comments comparing the death penalty well deserved for real cases of murderers and rapist to the Witch Trials which have nothing to do with today’s times, it’s the past, we are discussing today’s necessary use of the Death Penalty not the witch trials . Geeze! Even Saint Thomas defense for the death penalty used reason, he was not discussing any witch trials. Lets get to the real issue not ones that do not pertain,. His argument is irrelevant.

Posted Tuesday, March 06, 2012 7:33 PM By MacDonald
@ Mark from PA 3:11 — you would think so, but, alas, no. Some people who are against abortion are also against helping mothers in trouble, even via the Gabriel Project. Instead, they want to “shun” such women and “punish” them for getting pregnant out of wedlock. People in this blog have protested the fact that some parishes reach out to such women and even give them baby showers. To me, such attitudes are really not so much “pro-life” but rather merely “anti-abortion.”

Posted Tuesday, March 06, 2012 11:16 PM By Abeca Christian
MacDonald has such harsh words for those who have strong moral values. He has passed a judgement rather than understanding the “why”. What a pity. He has no understanding on the purpose of things but see’s things as a punishment. I wonder when people choose freely their circumstances, I wonder who really is doing the punishing. My take is that people forget that there are always circumstances when we choose outside of God’s plan. Perhaps this poster feels that our views are punishing him and he has to succumb to accusations in which he has no rationalization.

Posted Tuesday, March 06, 2012 11:19 PM By Abeca Christian
I had to take a step back as I read Rose’s insulting comments to Mr. Fisher. Mr. Fisher, as I see it, is a gentleman who defends the faith, defends the unborn and has earned a great deal of respect from the pro-life movement, and he also seems to know the faith as a whole, I found it disrespectful that Rose who post by saying he was wrong. Rose is the same individual who believes in gay rights.

Posted Wednesday, March 07, 2012 12:02 AM By Kenneth M. Fisher
Liberals think as liberals do! They also read things entirely differently than others do, thus their twisted interpretation of the clear statements of both Pope John Paul II and Pope Benedict! If these same liberals would work hard to insure that murderers, once convicted, could never murder again, even I might join them on this issue. As it is, we do not have an effective way yet to prevent murderers from murdering again, even from their cells! God bless, yours in Their Hearts, Kenneth M. Fisher

Posted Wednesday, March 07, 2012 9:55 AM By Mark from PA
MacDonald, to me it is amazing that a pro-life person would shun a woman who is pregnant out of wedlock. The attitude that such women should be shunned and/or punished is one that would lead to more abortions. Mothers and children need to be supported after the child has been born. They need love and help not judgement.

Posted Wednesday, March 07, 2012 1:20 PM By Abeca Christian
To be honest I have never met anyone who shunned pregnant women (from the out of wedlock scenario) but I know that they had other great reasons in doing so, but what I loved was when a grandmum didn’t attend her baby shower (she had good reasons morally) but did visit her at the hospital and gave the baby lots of baby diapers, cute bibs that she made herself and also bought them an expensive car seat. What an honorable grandmum! So MacDonald may have added a scenario of ill judgements without knowing the whole “why” once again.

Posted Wednesday, March 07, 2012 1:55 PM By jon
Great job Rose. It is good to hear Catholic laity such as you defending the faith as articulated by the Magisterium. And just to refute Abeca’s unfounded comment—Rose has never defended gay rights. Again, great job, Rose.

Posted Thursday, March 08, 2012 10:05 AM By Mark from PA
Abeca Christian, The Catechism does say that gay people should be treated with respect.

Posted Thursday, March 08, 2012 11:16 PM By Abeca Christian
What is respect? Lets look to the Angels, the Saints and mostly to our loving Lord and His mother for that answer. If Jesus who came and died on the cross, wasn’t shown a bit of respect, he was spat at, beaten, mocked etc, Jesus being the innocent lamb, slain then are we better than He, ARE we as sinners worthy of better than our Lord, who is perfect and holy, then the respect the church expects for the disordered must be of one that a sinner may not fully comprehend because our Lord has shown us that sodomy and lustful sins are never to be honored but respect only comes to those who seek to look for their own salvation as they grow closer to Christ by their totally surrender of their disorder and into humble supplication for our Lord to show them a better way, one that will not destroy their dignity with their choosing to embrace sin but with the respect and love that comes to the human soul, as they turn away from sin even when it is hard to do so! It is in the passion of Christ, that a homosexual can earn such respect by their turning away from sin. Respect can never be granted to the activist, the ones who have imposed their lifestyles onto society and especially by scandalizing children. This is a discussion that is deep and can only be discussed with certain individuals who have truly the zeal to please God and let go of their version of respect and trade it in for the one that belongs to God! AMEN Praising Jesus forever and with great honor I worship the one who is our ABBA! ALPHA and OMEGA! AMEN!