In the August 20 issue of the Catholic Voice, the newspaper of the diocese of Oakland, Archbishop Salvatore Cordileone introduces the first of a new series of article on Natural Family Planning. Here is an excerpt from His Excellency’s column:
This year the question of religious liberty has emerged as a central issue far beyond what any of us would have imagined just a couple of years ago. I am grateful to all of our pastors who promoted the US bishops’ call for the “Fortnight for Freedom” and have continued to educate our people on this very important challenge to us at this time, and for all of our people who have been actively engaged in advocating for this God-given and constitutional right of ours.
Of course, it is the mandate of the Department of Health and Human Services that all employer-provided insurance coverage include contraception, with only the narrowest of exceptions for religious organizations, that has brought this issue to the fore with fever-pitch intensity. This, though, is only the latest and most blatant challenge in the area of freedom of the exercise of religion and of conscience.
Surveys that ask people their opinion on whether insurance providers should include contraception in their coverage are missing the point. We would certainly hear different results if, instead, the pollsters asked: “Who should decide for a religious organization what its mission is, the religious organization itself or the government?”; “Who should define for a religious organization the people to whom it is to extend health, education and social services, the religious organization itself or the government?”; “Who should define for a religious organization who its members are, the religious organization itself or the government?”
While the leadership of faith communities throughout the country has rightly kept the focus on religious liberty and freedom of conscience, nonetheless, the HHS mandate has put the Church’s teaching on responsible parenthood and the legitimate regulation of birth front and center.
Another question lurking in the background in this whole debate is this: Why would the government require, for the sake of women’s health, insurance coverage of a medication the World Health Organization classifies as a Class 1 carcinogen? Yet, this is exactly what the WHO has done after dozens of studies over a period of many years have demonstrated a link between hormonal contraceptives and increased risk of breast and cervical cancer (as well as heart disease) in women (cf.www.who.int/reproductivehealth/topics/ageing/cocs_hrt_statement.pdf)….
The oral contraceptive pill is the cause for the breast cancer epidemic. This is one of the most taboo topics in medicine, so thank you for bringing it into public debate.
Pray for Archbishop Cordileone, he has stepped into a hornest nest!
God bless, yours in Their Hearts,
Kenneth M. Fisher
Yes, the way to fight the hypocrisy, is to show the hypocrisy. My prayers are with you Archbishop Cordileone and all the good and faithful clergy who are sincere and steadfast in fighting the good fight.
IS IT CONCEIVABLE THAT THE “WHO” WILL BE REWARDED BY THOSE WHO CHARGE MONEY FOR TREATING THE CARCINOGEN AND THOSE DISEASES CAUSED BY CONTRACEPTION? NOW, THAT WOULD BE A BIG SURPRISE, EH? I GUESS THAT EVENTUALLY ALL THOSE “HELPED” WILL BE DEAD AND OFF THE GOVERNMENT DOLE.
People who take care of their health by natural ways such as physical exercise, nutrition, happy hearts … and minimize BigPharm and robosurgery … will likely enjoy life into the 80s on the average. Their load on health care would consist of maybe ten percent per capita, a drop in the bucket. Why are we afraid to go cold turkey from the medical lords? I recommend mediation on the three temptations of Christ for the answer.
Studies show that both contraceptives and abortions cause breast cancer. Bottom line is “Father” Knows Best. We need to start voting for pro-life candidates and those who stand up for the truth. This is not a war on women, it is a war against evil. Pray that our church leaders and shepherds share the papal message. We need “Holy” Change!
Why don’t we have choices in health insurance as we do in auto insurance, such as a high deductible per accident or not paying for coverage we don’t want or need? Coverage for contraception or abortion could be optional. Senior citizens don’t need maternity coverage. Young people rarely need hip or knee replacements. I wonder if Obamacare requires coverage for contraception and abortion now, because sometime in the future, some people might be forbidden to have children or required to have an abortion if they become pregnant. It couldn’t happen here? It happened in Germany, China and other countries. Obama is already ruling by fiat in many cases.
Anyone who thinks it can’t happen in the USA should read the news about the Tea Party and the US Army commander of Fort Leavenworth … He is preparing officers to one day fight against the Tea Party. Check it out. “It” can indeed happen here … and in fact it is already happening here. More and more frequently the govt is arresting citizens for what they say, and withholding their Constitutional rights from them. This water is barely warm now but it continues to rise in temperature … slowly so you won’t notice. The big battle is all but over, and that is abortion. The bishops are ok with the million plus abortions per year, and thus most wannabe Catholics are ok with it. They accept it as simply one part of society. Few of them lift a finger to stop abortion … the rest of the ride is downhill now. There is a reason God gives each of us the choice of whether to believe there was the apparition of Fatima.
The Church lost the birth control battle because when you get right down to the crux of the issue, the average Catholic family wants a safe and effective method to regulate their family size, which in today’s world is fewer children, 3 or less. This is an age old desire by most families and it’s only in the last 60 years that effective methods of birth control are now on the market to meet that need. The Church’s method of birth control, NFP or the rythym method, is as not as effective as the Pill and other devices so few people use it. Not using any birth control at all is counterintuitive to the obvious need to have something in place to achieve the objective of a reasonable family size.
You only need to look around at Mass to know that contraception is not only widely used in Catholic families but there is no condemnation from the pulpit for its use. With 80% of US Catholic families using birth control the Church doens’t approve of, that’s not a fight the average priest wants to pick. This is a battle that is essentially over, and the Church’s harping on it won’t reverse the march of history in developed countries in Europe and the Americas that want smaller family sizes. That trend will continue, irrespective of protestations of the Church.
P.S. The co inventor of the birth control pill was a Catholic, Dr. Rock. Also, the commission of Cardinals that sent the family planning report to Pope Paul VI in 1966 approved dropping the ban on artificial birth control. His Holiness waited two years to announce keeping the ban in place, a decision that damaged the Papacy and the Church.
Spoken like a TRUE Modernist. You say in effect Leave God out of it.
Just what is your “goodcause” anyway?
Haven’t you by now seen enough damage from artificial birth control.
The late Fr. Paul Marx, OSB, Founder of Human Life International, at one of the HLI Conferences, told us that we would lose to the Moslems because of your beloved birth control, and so far he was right!
God bless, yours in Their Hearts,
Kenneth M. Fisher
Kenneth Fisher,
Excellent response!
Point in fact: The nation of Norway is almost entirely void of Jews now, and other European nations are noticing a rapid drop in their Jewish populations. Besides Catholics, Jews tend to want to minimize their numbers of babies. But the Jewish population being radically smaller than the Catholic population, this drop in numbers is showing up much more plainly. The Moslems not only are agitating against the Jews but they are not cutting off their progency at the font of life. And thus their numbers are rising.
With 80% of US Catholics living in mortal sin it’s no wonder they are indifferent to to the legalization of abortion.
The Church did not lose the birth control battle, goodcause: Because the Church does not use birth control … it is the false church that uses it … the weeds among the grain.
Myth: NFP is the rhythm method.
Fact: NFP is not the rhythm method.
I congratulate you for beginning to come to the right place for Catholic news. Eventually, you will be freed from mainstream media mouthpieces and their anti-Catholic agenda-driven mythology.
NFP is birth control, mostly at the expense of soul control.
There is nothing immoral about NFP.
There it is again! It’s all about what “I” want. What about the will of God and doing what is in God’s plan and NOT “my” plan? What about our marriage vows where we vowed to accept children lovingly from God? Come on Catholics! Really? Put God first for a change!
The ancient Roman Empire was the developed country of its day, goodcause; however, the “undeveloped” little upstart called Catholicism changed that. Your anti-faith and failure to recognize that not all who call themselves Catholic actually are … by your percentage, maybe only twenty percent of the “visible” Catholic pew sitters are actually Catholic. Count the number of adults and of children in your parish; if you get a ratio of one point eight children, then you know you’ve got maybe zero Catholics in that parish.
goodcause,
NFP is a safe, effective and inexpensive way to achieve or avoid pregnancy. A couple who chooses to abstain to avoid pregnancy for serious reason during the fertile time of the cycle is not the same as a couple choosing to practice contraception by taking the pill, using the IUD or using a barrier method such as the diaphragm or condom.
As far as its recognized effectiveness as a method for avoiding pregnancy, there are currently more than 4 million couples using NFP in China to avoid pregnancy with an overall success rate of 98+ percent (this is as effective as the pill). China is a country where a coercive, one-child only policy is strictly enforced: There is no tolerance for ineffective, unreliable family planning methods.
Along with its proven effectiveness, there are many health and marriage-buidling benefits to NFP.
The argument that NFP does not work is false. Getting the facts out about NFP remains a challenge and it seems your post is proof of that.
God bless Archbishop Cordileone!!! He is a holy and humble soul!
God bless your lion-like heart, Archbishop Cordileone. God bless your lion-like heart. I have suvived cancer three times because of priests such as you, to live to become a senior citizen because I never took any estrogen, especially the Pill, on a regular basis. God bless your lion-like heart, Archbishop Cordileone.. May your heart become more everyday like the heart of Jesus, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, and may the Lord Jesus make my heart like his, too. In the end Aslan conquers. We know that.
I would argue that Naturally Family Planning (NFP), based on Genesis 38:9-10, is an immoral method for married couples to use in order to avoid having children. One of primary purposes of marriage is to have children and the procreative relationship of a married couple should never be separated from that naturally UNRESTRICTED possibility or the marriage relationship becomes self-centered and narscisstic. NFP should really be styled as NATURAL CONTRACEPTION, since its primary objective is to naturally prevent children from being conceived and can only lead to the abortion mentality. Otherwise, there would no need for married couples to use NFP in the first place.
The only real moral option for spacing children for married couples is to use CONTINENCE (i.e., abstinence for married couples) if unable to have children for health or economic reasons. Unmarried persons, who claim to follow Christ, must also practice self-control and the same noble concept should, at times, also hold true with married couples. If self-control were taught in pre-cana programs, rather than giving into purely sexual desires (procreation without children) within the marriage relationship, we would have more holy families in the Catholic Church (and Christian churches where similar programs are taught).
In promoting the pro-life cause and Christian decency within families, Christians should think chivalry, decency, honor, sacrifice and modesty in dress and actions and, more importantly, pray for guidance on this family issue.
LUKE, the “light” in your enlightenment has gone out.
NFP does not lead to any darned abortion mentality, especially becasue the only people willing to undertake NFP would be faithful catholics who care about church teaching, and life, and thus would never consider abortion.
telling married couple never to make love to one another again is atrocious, and this is in essence when you are doing. they didn’t sign up for monastic life and shouldn’t have to live it.
Jesus through St Paul in fact told married couples to either pray or engage in sex … period. NFP is not a dogma of the Church. Remember that countless bishops opposed the Pope who nixed contraception … but he thought about it for a while from what I’ve read … It was a close call. NFP is a lot more subtle than that. Almost all the bishops at a time in ancient history taught heresy and only later to repent of it. They are teaching NFP now but it is not a defined doctrine of the Magisterium. It will run its foul course. Many will run with it and yet many will reject it.
JLS, you do not have the competence, ability, or authority to claim that NFP is intrinsically evil. You mention Humanae Vitae; take note of the following passage from it:
***This particular doctrine, often expounded by the magisterium of the Church, is based on the inseparable connection, established by God, which man on his own initiative may not break, between the unitive significance and the procreative significance which are both inherent to the marriage act.
Recourse to Infertile Periods
16. Now as We noted earlier (no. 3), some people today raise the objection against this particular doctrine of the Church […] The Church is the first to praise and commend the application of human intelligence to an activity in which a rational creature such as man is so closely associated with his Creator. But she affirms that this must be done within the limits of the order of reality established by God.
If therefore there are well-grounded reasons for spacing births, arising from the physical or psychological condition of husband or wife, or from external circumstances, the Church teaches that married people may then take advantage of the natural cycles immanent in the reproductive system and engage in marital intercourse only during those times that are infertile, thus controlling birth in a way which does not in the least offend the moral principles which We have just explained.***
I forgot to mention — JLS, you say that NFP isn’t dogma, which is correct. However, the Church teaches that it’s morally permissible, and you must abide by her teaching. Fr. Robert Levis of EWTN fame once said the following:
1. If it is a teaching proclaimed by the extraordinary magisterium, a good Catholic must assent under pain of heresy.
2. If it is a teaching proclaimed by the ordinary magisterium, e.g. the 10 Commandments, a good Catholic must assent under pain of serious sin.
3. If it is a teaching seriously proclaimed by the magisterium in a non-infallible way, on a non-infallible topic, a good Catholic must assent under pain of sin, possibly mortal.
The teaching that NFP is not intrinsically evil clearly falls into category #3.
I’m always scared by names like “Luke the Enlightener.” My first thought is, what darkness is he going to bring? NFP is endoresed by the Magesterium and so by definition is moral. There, that was simple, wasn’t it?
Try to get beyond the intro and look at the content.
Luke makes the critical but rejected argument. The evidence to bear out the validity of his argument is the indulgence in abortion by most voting Catholics including the bishops who lead to them to it. NFP conditions the soul to view the sexual urge as purely material. It borders on edge of puritanism … that is to say, on the edge of viewing material things as not so good. NFP puts a wall up in front of the “possibility” that part of the sexual urge is spiritual. Notice the article claims that the practice of NFP between spouses creates bonding? This idea forecloses on the spiritual aspect of sex, which manifests in the creation of children. At some point in the future the Church will declare it anathema.
Practicing NFP calls for periodic abstinence, so I’m a bit confused by Luke’s comment. The marital embrace has a two-fold purpose, unitive and procreative and both need to be present. In practicing NFP couples, who have PRAYERFULLY discerned a SERIOUS reason to postpone a pregnancy, sacrifice their desire to have relations during the fertile phase of the cycle.
It is, however, possible to misuse NFP if the couples’ reasons for avoiding more children is selfish. I believe in NFP because it is a great tool for monitoring a woman’s health and usually leads the couple to better communication, but recently the way the method is being taught by some seems to indicate couples MUST be practicing NFP with a specific intent. Meaning couples are required to be decidedly working to avoid or achieve and to state they intent to a third party. Unless the couple has discerned a serious reason to postpone, there is no requirement to time relations.
Truly, my husband and I have felt called to be completely open, which has included carrying many crosses. We understand those crosses to be gifts drawing us closer to the heart of Christ, but sadly I think some couples see the cross as something to run from and thereby they refuse more children based on the idea that less children will bring a better “quality of life.”
Confusion comes from lack of knowledge … study your Catholic faith, and not some watered down babble that is so popular … because it calms the uproar and brings in money.
JLS, listen to what Tara is saying as she speaks from experience. To the best of my knowledge, you are a single man, so you don’t have as much insight as to how women feel about this.
Unitive and procreative are not two separate things, but one thing with two names. NFP tends to tear asunder this thing. You marry so that you can bear and raise children, not so that you can bond to one another and the heck with the kids. Marriage and family are one thing with two names.
Luke’s comment is a logical evaluation of Church doctrine and contemporary society. It is not a personal expression of how he feels. He explains his feelings over the logical evaluation. So, maybe the confusion is due to misreading Luke’s blog … do not take his blog personally, as he is not writing about individual people. He is writing on a social level … you have to be able to understand ideas if you want to understand what he is blogging about. Those who go to college and study ideas should have no problem with this category of blogging. But many Catholics do not have that education or else they have very narrowly focused educations without much of a humanities background. Luke is talking about one thing, and Tara is talking about something else. If you don’t get it, then simply move on to some topic that you get.
By Luke’s reasoning spouses should not refrain from marital relations during a wife’s period bc it might be contraceptive minded. Or what about when the wife is nursing, which supresses fertility? I suppose couples should engage in relations as often as possible and especially during any times of suspected lowered fertility, or else they are contraceptive minded. I have 6 children, I breastfed each exclusively for about a year and contined it non exclusively for over two years per child. My children are spaced 2 plus years apart each. I suppose our failure to abstain throughout those 6 to 11 12 yrs of supressed fertility was contraceptive minded But Lukes advice is the truly.marerialistic approach bc its logically consisten apication would require the contrivance of having relations only when fertile bc anything else would be contraceptive.
To Luke the Enlightener…you are all over the place in this argument against NFP. What you propose is what NFP is. Continence, self control, and definitely sacrificial at times.. We are not ask to be rabbits we are human beings! The married couple works TOGETHER. The Catholic Church does not teach how to avoid pregnancy , it teaches how to live a holy and fullfilled marriage, having children, and being responsible and God centered throughout the married life. It is really very beautiful. NFP may not be the right title, but if taught in its entirety and properly, is about marriage and unity with God. If couples would be willing to try the church’s method, we would see bigger families, stronger families and holier families. Unfortunately one spouse is often willing, but not the other, or both are not willing to go the true way the Catholic Church teaches.
NFP is about avoiding pregnancy.
I knew someone who taught NFP and they told me that everyone who attended their sessions were trying to become pregnant.
YES, fertility awareness works both ways, if used correctly it is as effective if not more than the Pill or any other artificial contraceptive.
For becoming pregnant or spacing.
Those who argue against it ought to study it!!
Yeah, like you are forgetting the numbers game, k. Why would a large number of couples not be getting pregnant? Answer is that this is not the case. Without fertility manipulation almost all couples bear children. The hype for NFP is addressing a very large part of society … so you should be able to see that most are interested in it so as to avoid pregnancy.
The Wages of sin is death.
NFP gives couples a false sense of control. The only way to not have kids is to not have sex or sterilize. Many contraceptives fail because they are not used correctly or are used with medicines that negatively interact with them. Of course in practicing Catholic families that use NFP all babies are welcome and the thought of abortion never enters the picture. The age of contraception has led to unlimited abortion and explosion of STD’s. What it comes down to is do you trust God to provide for your family whatever the size is.
You are right, contraceptives often fail. So therefore it is important for the couple to understand this and to be open to life in case their birth control does not work. They need to understand that abortion is not birth control but the taking of innocent life.
Abortion has been used to limit babies in the former Soviet Union beginning in the thirties. It became the norm for limiting family size. The government would regulate the average number of babies by using abortion programs. When the govt wanted more babies, it would induce less abortion, and when it wanted fewer babies it would persuade the population to abort more. China uses this method even way more harshly. The so called free enterprise west does the same thing, only it uses Madison Avenue instead of govt force.
I agree that that the fight for NFP is lost. Not because is wrong, but because people have moved on to another level of understanding of marriage. To say that the purpose of marriage is to have children would facinate a lot of young people. Today, the definition of a family is different that a hundred years ago, for good or bad. Single parent families are becoming the norm. We know that 90%+ of catholic couples use birth control. The Bishops have lost their power of moral teaching because of the molestation cases. It is possible that its time for the Bishops to move on to other pastures. Nobody is listening on this issue.
So Bob One, I guess the fight against sin and the salvation of souls is also lost. After all, we modern Catholics have a new and enlightened understanding of sin. We know 100% (plus or minus) of Catholic sin and that less and less Catholics attend Mass every week or go to confession. Sin has become the norm. You are so right Bob One. It’s time for the Bishops to move on to other pastures. The Catholic Faith and the salvation of souls is just not working. Nobody is listening (well, maybe God is listening).
Failure,rejection and isolation are the themes of todays Gospel Sunday 26th Aug.
Not all as below.
.
St Peters reply to Jesus ‘Whom shall we go to? You have the message of eternal life”,
Think on you doubters!!!!
Perseverance, fidelity and trust. Most of all TRUTH.
Most of you are all over the place in your responses to my argument, based on Genesis 38:9-10, that NFP is an immoral option for married couples.
Simply put, your claims that the marital union (while using NFP) is open to the possibility of children, are very disingenuous in light of the “fact” that “some methods of NFP can be 99% effective IN AVOIDANCE OF PREGNANCY (cited from PhysiciansForLife on its online website).” Further, Human Life International states on its website that “the eight major studies on the effectiveness of typical methods of natural family planning in the 1990s show an average FAILURE RATE OF 2.8%.
Two very objective observations can be made about these preceding quotes: First, couples that are using NFP to avoid having children really do not want to have children when using NFP (otherwise, they would not use NFP in the first place). Second, as the two prior quotes point out, NFP, for all intents and purposes, is 97.2% to 99% effective in preventing pregnancy — meaning this form of NATURAL CONTRACEPTION is more effective, than most other forms of artificial contraception, for the purposes of avoiding pregnancy.
Pope Pius XI, in his 1930 encyclical, Casti Cannabi, stated that the procreative act (sexual union for purposes of having children) is the primary purpose of the sexual union while the sexual bond between the couple is the secondary purpose. Logically, if couples are using Natural Family Planning or any form of artificial birth control (obviously to avoid pregnancy), then the primary purpose of the sexual union is not to procreate, but rather to avoid children in order to satiate their own sexual desires independent of any likelihood of pregnancy, through the sexual bond. With at least a 97.2% success rate for avoiding children, NFP, like all forms of artificial contraception, makes the sexual bond, rather than procreation, the primary purpose of the sexual union. The only way, by way of the numbers, that NFP could even be considered to support the primary purpose of the sexual union (procreation) is if NFP had a failure rate of 51% (of course no NFP couples would waist their time using such a hypothetical method of NFP because its high failure rate would more likely than not lead to pregnancy).
Saint Augustine warned an heretical group of his day that “you consider marriage is not to procreate children, but to satiate lust.” Based on my proceeding observations, I know Saint Augustine, along with Jesus, would agree that NFP (along with all forms of artificial contraception) is heretical to the true teachings of Christ in that it considers that “marriage is not to procreate children, but to satiate lust.”
Read humanae vitae.
I think you are being scrupulous. The rate of success or failute of NFP has nothing to do with its morality.
k, that is not scrupulosity. It is Catholicism.
JLS, did you know that even prior to Vatican II, married couples who had serious reasons not to get pregnant (such as a health risk to the woman) could get a dispensation and be allowed to use birth control? It is not a sin to have sex within marriage and take advantage of the periods of infertility.
Luke, the Magesterium through Humanae Vitae spoke of the value of natural methods when needs arouse to space births. What more do you need to know? I agree with Anonymous: don’t just read Humanae Vitae, but memorize it.
“Needs”: Good one. First instruction to the human race, God said multiply. Is the Church now saying that is over and now it’s time for phase two? I thought Revelation was complete with the last Apostle.
I’d wager that H.V. devotees are interpreting it alone and without the benefit of the rest of the Church doctrines.
Some of you have shown your displeasure regarding my self styled nickname (Luke the Enlightener) that I used for comments on this website regarding NFP. I used this descriptive nickname because Jesus called His followers to be the light of the world. In this regard, Jesus stated;
Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me. Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you. You are the salt of the earth and if salt loses its saltiness, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled by men. YOU ARE THE LIGHT OF THE WORLD. A city on a hill cannot be hidden. NEITHER DO PEOPLE LIGHT A LAMP AND PUT IT UNDER A BOWL. INSTEAD, THEY PUT IT ON ITS STAND AND IT GIVES LIGHT TO EVERYONE IN THE HOUSE. IN THE SAME WAY, LET YOUR LIGHT SO SHINE BEFORE MEN, THAT THEY MAY SEE YOUR GOOD WORKS AND GIVE GLORY TO THE FATHER IN HEAVEN.
Matthew 5:11-16
Luke, brother,
You neglected to mention that the Catholic Church teaches that NFP is licit (permissible) for serious reasons. Don’t take the safety-net away lest some souls fall into ruin.
To be a true “light to everyone in the house,” which is the Church, you ought not neglect important elements of the Church’s teaching.
Serious reasons, Gardner? The whole NFP thing is being hyped to the gills … and you suppose all the interest is in serious reasons.
BTW, humility is not hiding behind a bush but boldly announcing truth. Luke is indeed announcing the truth, as the Church has always taught. The repeated pattern found described in the Old Testament shows that the decline of a civilization begins with adultery and idolatry and then moves to sodomy … That is what not only our civilization is wrapped up in now, but also our Church. Those who don’t get it … well, too bad … just go with how you feel while you allow the world to work your puppet strings.
The passages quoted by Luke exemplify what we call humility, a great virtue … namely it means allowing the light of Christ to show in your life and not hiding it under a bushel basket like the Masons would have you do.
At last someone has told me why teachers of Fertility Awareness get tormented so much-we are doing The Lords work.!
Jesus speaks of teachers laying heavy burdens on men’s shoulders ‘you have caused many to stumble’.. Rabbis differed in their interpretation of the Law. Some favoured a broad and more compassionate interpretation while others took a strict or narrow interpretation of obligation. and laid heavy burdens on them.
We are united to Jesus through acceptance of the Good News He brought to us; the Good News of the Salvation He won for us.
God is not asking for the impossible from us This is why He left us Holy Mother Church to show us the way and ‘enlighten us through Tradition Holy Scripture and the Magisterium’.
Some medical facts about human reproduction.
The female cycle is usually every 28 days.
The ovary ovulates at day 14 after the start of the previous menstrual period (which coincides with a peak in body temperature).
If not fertilized the egg survives for only 24 hours.
Sperm can survive for up to six days in the uterine tubes.
Thus, the woman is fertile for 7 days out of 28.
You can can confirm this in any Medical Embryology textbook, for example Langsman’s.
The ovum is capable of being fertilised between 12hrs- usually 36 to 48hrs The Symto Thermal Method
The sperm lives for 5 to 6 days previous to ovulation-the female it is necessary to abstain 4 daysafter peak,which is stretchy mucus and rise of temperature. Which stays up until next menstrual period.
The male is fertile into old age, The Oestrogenic cervical mucus is known to nourish sperms and conduct them through channels into the uterus.
Not too difficult surely!
Why is everybody so upset about NFP? Hardly anybody uses the method, except the families that already have 6,7,8 plus children, you know the Latin Mass goers. I find it amusing, that the ones who use it ARE the ones with big families, and the devout Roman Catholics. I had 7 children, I used it…sometimes…lol. I think it is misunderstood, mostly by men! But in the churches wisdom, NFP came along with great compassion toward women, we are the baby carriers you know. So called “catholic couples” that do not want children or only 2 children, do not use NFP, they don’t give a hoot what the church really says, and NFP is too risky for those very fearful and controlled couples. All I can say is thank you Rome for giving couples who strive for holiness a natural way. Like I said we are not expected to be rabbits!
We are not expected to keep on having miscarriages, and so ill in health not be able to look after the babies we already have!
It is not only for having babies like rabbits!
Spend your time either in prayer or in sex … those are your two options according to St Paul. Those who naysay it are those who have no concern for prayer and no desire for conversing with God.
“Spend your time either in prayer or in sex.” You will have to quote chapter and verse on that one, JLS. St. Paul obviously didn’t have the internet to spend time on.
I agree Mary Helena. Carolyn
PS. Luke the Enlightener…you are all wet. Read Humane Vitae, you may be enlightened.
Carolyn, you are misinterpreting HV, and this can be seen from your posts.
I have many times. Please read my comment, above, in reply to Father Gardner’s comment. I hope my comment clarifies my position against NFP for you. I honestly believe that, if Catholic couples want to get to heaven, they should take the moral high road by leading holy and virtuous lives and that NFP is not conducive to this end; since there are negative moral consequences for couples using NFP.
You need to know that before 1930 (the rhythm method being discovered in 1930), the only licit means of spacing children out for married Catholic couples was through the use of continence. However, I admit that this method probably was never taught by the Catholic Church but would have inevitably been discovered through the consequences of couples not using it in marriage. For instance, if women had too many children over a short period of time, their health could become worn down. Also, if married couples could not afford to have large families, especially in cities, children would sometimes die of starvation and disease (read about the slums of New York City in the 1800s) and some children were sent off to orphanages (read about the orphan train movement, 1854-1929).
Obviously, no matter what circumstances children are born under, they should always be valued and loved and abortion is never an option.
To Tara…..well said Tara. Thanks for further insight for many who do not seem to fully understand the beauty of NFP when it is applied as our church has directed.
JLS…you should be more specific about how I am misrepresenting Humanae Vitae. I have read it many times, it is the most compassionate and beautiful Encyclical Letter ever written for and to married couples. Pope Paul IV suffered greatly for this encyclical and stated himself that it would not be understood. He speaks to many, Christian couples, doctors, nurses, scientists, bishops, priests, those who teach. He talks about compassion, responsibility, love and faithfulness to God’s design. He also, of course, speaks about the consequences of artificial birth control and the lowering of moral standards. The most beautiful part is how he speaks of God’s love, and the mystery of Christ’s love for His church, in relation to the husband’s love for his wife. Every single act of intercourse, must be open to new life and no interfering means may be implemented. I do not like to quote out of context, but if you go to section 16, Recourse to Infertile Periods, he explains this wonderfully. He also speaks of a “new understanding of the dignity of woman,” and I will say that NFP has greatly helped women in understanding the design of God for women and how He has created us (biologically) as the child bearers. We will agree to disagree JLS, as we discuss our ideas. In the past Catholics practiced coitus interruptus, before the “pill” came along, this also is immoral, but was heavily justified in Catholic circles. My point being that there has always been problems in this realm. Pope Paul VI saw the writing on the wall and with the Holy Spirit guiding him, he gave us a path to follow…
Darn, Carolyn, I somehow prophetically knew you’d take me to task on it. But in a nutshell: When you write it all off to ” there has always been problems in this realm”, you simply shift the reason for being of Catholicism from salvation to go along to get along.
What I’m trying to say, Carolyn, is that the Via Dolorosa ends only at the Cross. So, why are so many Catholics jumping out of line and running amok?
“We will agree to disagree JLS, as we discuss our ideas”: Speak for yourself, Carolyn. I prefer the type of advice one finds in Scripture instead of these little “go along to get along” snippets perpetuated by those afraid to risk their comfort by going along with the Gospel.
JLS wrote:
“Spend your time either in prayer or in sex … those are your two options according to St Paul. Those who naysay it are those who have no concern for prayer and no desire for conversing with God.”
wow, JLS, you are my hero.
you are like a walking bible commentary, with six guns. saint paul must be applauding your wisdom from heaven – or taking some aspirin.
max: a. I’m now off aspirin since I read that it acts against joint repair. b. now where did I put my hero cape and special hero shoes? c. I learned my Bible thumpin’ by watching all the episodes of Paladin. d. easier to recommend St Paul, educated in the Third Heaven, when you’re single … cry your eyes out, dude.
You 2 max and JLS are funny. Well JLS, I am just going to have to make my sentences longer and much more descriptive. You know what I meant….you just like to get my goat! Anyway, yes this “birth control thing has always been a problem with the married laity. Call it fear, call it rebellion, call it not caring where ya go after death, or call it trying to “keep my husband happy, he wouldn’t put up that”….I heard that one quiet a bit.
Go ahead, Anonymous, make yer move.
Well JLS, just being a realist. For some reason, most people have this huge fear of having a bunch of kids…so it has been a big issue, since when I do not know…maybe since the big fall. Anyway, the dear church has spoken, and I can not judge a soul. I do know that many priests failed their flock, by telling them it was their conscious that should dictate whether they should use artificial birth control..yikes. Also, this issue has been little spoken from the pulpit. Pope Paul didn’t mince words when he spoke of the difficulty in accepting Humanae Vitae. It is all abput trust in Jesus, and you know what
Few years back, I was doing a family tree from scratch, not from some program or service. I ran into an aunt of some sort (mother’s mother’s father’s brother’s son’s son’s daughter … or something like that, ie my own mother’s age group). She had compiled the family tree for fifty years. She sent me a photo taken during the Great Depression in Oklahoma. In the photo was her father and mother, and their ten children, but also the ten children of her father and is first wife who had died. Twenty children, and all arrayed around a (now classic) farm truck from the early thirties. They were all smiling and happy. People come and go, some sooner, some later, but children should not be limited because of some discomfort or whatever vain excuse that can be thought up and marketed.
I was a naiive college brat beginning in 1967 and began running into Catholic kids. I recall some hush type talk about sexual freedom and the pill and the Church. The mere fact of controversy within the Vatican was enough to shut down any critical reasoning process among the Catholic coeds … “Hey, we can do it without getting pregnant now” became their mindset. The vision of the Church abruptly changed from salvation to sex, and it has only degraded ever since then.
“most people have this huge fear of having a bunch of kids”; Anon., when in history do you suppose this fear popped up all of a sudden?
Realism in the literary sense is one thing, Anon. But realism in reality is another. The Church and mankind and God are not stage plays nor novels. Reality includes the trials and tribulations one has to go through when walking with Jesus. Oh, I forgot, you ride in your chauffered limo.
You’re not being real. Jesus is real, and what you are being is worldly. Soothsaying is not the right approach to truth, Anon.
Now JLS you know what I meant. I am on the mobile, keep losing my blogs, so now I will only say that yes there has always been problems in this “having too many babies” thing. When we trust in Jesus, believe the Catholic Church speaks truth and begin to follow, we start to smile……slowly. By the time we are 65 like me, we are smiling even bigger, because obedience has given us wisdom to know that all the rest is folly. Gosh I love my Roman Catholic (church) faith…..even with all its problems….the gates of hell will never prevail against it…..we have HIS word.
I can only speak from the little wisdom that I have. You are right, to love the Cross is to be in Love with Jesus. The world, the flesh and the devil are competitors with LOVE. I love St. Paul, he is always so eloquent in telling us how to live. Ephesians 5: 1-20. I do not want to be prideful, for my sins have been many, but maybe it is the desire to want to love more and be very close to Jesus, as Mary, Martha and John were. I do believe also that many are running amok, because they refuse to repent. The Baptist is one of my very favorites, “repent, repent.” The church has given us the confessional, and many many catholics are not going to confession, they are steadfast in their sin, and cannot see properly. We receive glorious Grace from above when we avail ourselves to this very special sacrament.
Yes JLS I agree the narrow road ends at the cross, but it takes great love to know that the cross is sweet, not bitter. How do we get to great love? He gave us His church and when we embrace it with all our hearts, we realize it is TRUTH, it is Him. We then can get to the business of love, because the quest for TRUTH is over, and all that is left is to embrace the Cross of Love. The world, the flesh and the devil are always trying hard to pull us out of line. I find for me, confession gives me strength and grace to keep going on that little way. Maybe many run amok, because they do not believe that the teachings of the church are true, are real and they are still not convinced? They are in line, out of line and they never really get on that Via Dolorosa road…..the little narrow and rocky one, the one where we encounter LOVE. God Bless You.
The Cross is not sweet, Carolyn. A review of Good Friday ought to reveal this to you. But then I always think of St Louis on that hot grill, saying, “I’m done on this side, time to turn me over”. What graces he was being fed at that time of trial must have been sweet.
JLS, I believe you are referring to Saint Lawrence.
At first, I thought you were talking about the city in Missouri!
They’re both east of the Mississippi, MacD.
JLS….just one more, my last. I think? it was Saint Lawrence on the grill…..oh my, sounds horrid. Life has never been easy, ever. Our Lady said to St. Bernadette, “I cannot promise you happines in this world, only in the next.” Without the Cross life is bitter, it is more bitter, to me at least than if I didn’t have that sweetness of LOVE…..in the tabernacle HE is present…..waiting…always waiting.
‘Late have I loved Thee, Oh Beauty so ancient and new;’ Late have I loved Thee’.
St Augusine; of Hippo. Feast Day 28th August.
‘Late have I loved Thee, Oh Beauty so ancient and new;Late have I loved
Thee’
St Augustine of Hippo. Feast Day 28th August.
Carolyn, they will in time reach their goal! Their soul won’t rest until…………
OK, Carolyn, now that you’ve provided more perspective, the sweetness of the Cross I’ll buy.
JLS…PS…thanks for sharing.
Thank you for your response Father Gardner.
However, I would have to disagree with your comment questioning whether I am really being ‘a true “light to everyone in the house” which is the Church,’ because I criticized humanae vitae.
In this respect, the 1930 encyclical, Casti Cannabi, was never rescinded by the Vatican so it is still represents the “true” teaching authority of the Catholic Church. However, I admit Cast Cannabi contradicts humanae vitae in that it supports the use of Natural Family Planning (NFP) for married couples in certain situations. Hence, you, Father, and many others who have been mislead by humanae vitae, have had the wool pooled over your eyes by recent popes. These recent popes instead of lovingly shepherding the flock, have instead scattered that flock, by immorally telling married couples they can engage in sexual relations with the obvious intent to avoid having children (NFP is primarily marketed for its almost 100% effectiveness in avoiding pregnancy). Further, the sexually immoral and lewd NFP posters and pamphlets (with images showing women immodestly dressed and insinuating imminent sexual encounters between couples on those NFP advertisements), placed in Catholic churches, promote NFP without limitation and as a viable alternative to artificial birth control methods. When married couples have the intent to negate the primary purpose of the sexual union — procreation, then, as Saint Augustine aptly warned an heretical group of his day; “you consider marriage is not to procreate children, but to satiate lust.”
“For in matrimony as well as in the use of the matrimonial rights there are also secondary ends, such as mutual aid, the cultivation of mutual love and the quieting of concupiscence, which husband and wife are not forbidden to consider as long as they are subordinated to the primary end and so long as the intrinsic nature of the act is preserved.” Casti Connubi 59
I believe Pope Paul VI mislead the Catholic flock by issuing an immoral and contradictory encyclical, humanae vitae, that has led many Catholics astray. Humanae vitae, is simply immoral because, as already stated in my above comment that is based on the authoritative instructions of Casti Cannabi, it immorally makes the secondary purpose of the sexual union (the sexual bond), the primary purpose and it all but negates the original primary purpose of the sexual union (i.e., procreation — intent to have children). Further, instead of teaching married couples to not give into solely the sexual pleasures of the marital union through the use of NFP, the Church should have taught, instead, self-control through prayer, fasting, modesty and avoiding occasions of sin (e.g., watching movies and TV and reading impure magazines and newspapers). Jesus, set this example, himself, when He showed that He overcame the temptations of the devil in the desert only by prayer and fasting.
“the Church should have taught, instead, self-control through prayer, fasting, modesty and avoiding occasions of sin”: This works wonders.
Thanks for your moral support!
Now you know why Jesus said; “Nevertheless, when the Son of Man comes, will he find faith on earth (Luke 18:8)?” He also warned through Timothy; “For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear (2 Timothy 4:3).”
God Bless!
Also, the so-called NFP “safety net” spoken of in the above comments is a red herring argument as the REAL “safety net” for temptation for married couples (as well as single people, including priests) is prayer, fasting and avoiding occasions of sin, not giving into purely selfish, sexually driven desires. Otherwise, as is clearly evident from the lewd NFP advertisements in Catholic churches, Catholic couples will cease to be Holy Catholic Families. Continence, therefore, is the only viable alternative to artificial birth control methods, for spacing children (for financial and/or health reasons), as it was from the early Church up until the present time.
Catholics, please read the 1930 encyclical, Casti Connubii, which states “. . . any use whatever of matrimony exercised in such a way that the act is deliberately FRUSTRATED IN ITS NATURAL POWER TO GENERATE LIFE is an offense against the law of God and of nature, and those who indulge in such are branded with the guilt of a GRAVE SIN (emphasis added).”
NFP does not do that. That is why it is licit.
People do that, Anon. NFP is not a means to gain Heaven. Licit is a legal term and no one gains Heaven on the basis of law.
Licit means it is allowed. It is not a sin.
It could be depending on your intention. Again, Anon., you display zero understanding of external and internal.
JLS, yes. We are assuming here that there are serious reasons to avoid pregnancy.
Thank you Anonymous glad you made that point
The problem with Humanae Vitae, as I read it, is not so much that it orders the wrong thing, but that it gives over the responsibility to the laity to decide whether they are committing sin or not. This in itself is a kind of rhetoric found also in Vatican II documents. Jesus tells us in the Gospel that the sheep will be separated from the goats … the nature of sheep being to follow a leader and the nature of a goat to go its own way. There is a sheepfold but not a goatfold. In other words, contemporary Catholicism is creating the culling of the flock, allowing the goats to wander out and away from the sheep. It is time for those who prefer slavery to leave the Church … and isn’t the most oft heard complaint of those who do, something like that they no longer have strict rules to tell them how to take every step of their lives? Yet there also is the lot of laity who prefers not to exercise any rule at all … we find this in many of the advocates of NFP who slur the meaning of the Church doctrine so as to give them license for using it for any purpose as long as they cry out “It is the Church telling me I can do this”.
God promised both to Isaac and to Ishmael that they would be fathers of countless numbers of offspring. Child of Promise and child of nature: Both were promised vast offspring. Vast offspring is the greatest gift God has for mankind. NFP is used mostly to thwart this gift.
I am a person who was conceived during an “infertile” period by a couple using rhythm method. Obviously, to me at least, NFP does not interfere with pregnancy. You can try, but ultimately it is up to God.
You’re supposed to be living your life in union with God; so, why do you distance yourself from Him?
This is not one of Anonymous’ posts. I posted it, and forgot to put my moniker. When I realized it, I then did it correctly.
There are several who post as anonymous.
You’re supposed to be living your life in union with God; so, why are you distancing yourself from Him?
I am sorry if many of you cannot see the truth regarding the immorality of NFP. The Church is made up of human leaders and at times they have mislead the faithful about the true teachings of the Church and even the natural law (remember controversy regarding Galileo and his theory of heliocentrism; selling of indulgences that helped bring about the protestant reformation). Currently, the bishops of the USCCB (with the approval of the Vatican) authorize the most vile sexual education programs imaginable for children in Catholic schools from kindergarten through eighth grade (and into high school). Please do the research about these horrific sexual education programs on the internet to verify my claims. The point I am making is that these immoral sexual education programs are licit in the eyes of the HUMAN church, but in the eyes of God and his immutable moral law they are evil, just like NFP, and those who support, teach, or practice these immoral methods are in grave danger of not making it to heaven.
God demands and commands what we call modesty. The sex ed programs fail this command.
The issue with the sex ed programs is that it is the parent’s perogative to teach their kids about sex. The Church has an issue, though, because many of the parents of kids do not accept the Church’s teachings on sex. If they don’t get it at Catholic schools they won’t get it at all.
Extremely naiive view, Anon.
You know it does not teach the “mechanics” of sex, but the morality and also the consequences like STDs and pregnancy.
“The Church is made up of human leaders and at times they have mislead the faithful about the true teachings of the Church and even the natural law.” This is modernism. It is heretical. Re:the sexual education programs: I have read the things on the Internet about the sex ed programs. You will find that the offensive material is in the teachers books. My experience-the teachers do not use any programs that are even slightly graphic. All materials are shown to the parents and parents can always opt their kids out. No one will not make it to heaven because of obeying the Church. You need to stop creating your own moral code.
Also, in reply to the above comment about Casti Connubbii, of course you are wrong about your implied claim that NFP does not FRUSTRATE the NATURAL power to create life.
As I already pointed out, the major studies show that NFP is on average 97.2% to 99% effective in preventing pregnancy — it is in effect NATURAL CONTRACEPTION. It is marketed by supposedly pro-family groups as an effective, and more successful, alternative to artificial birth control methods. People do not use artificial birth control and NFP (in most cases) to bring about pregnancy, but rather, to prevent it. To say, otherwise, is a bunch of doubletalk and orwellian doublethink, and that is why NFP and all artificial birth control methods violate the authoritative Church teaching of Casti Connubbi (e.g., NFP being used by married couples to deliberately frustrate the natural power to create life since they are obviously using natural means to frustrate pregnancy from occurring).
Luke, it means while you are doing the act to employ some means to keep the sperm from reaching the ovum. It does not mean abstinance. NFP is abstinence during certain periods of time when a woman is most likely to get pregnant. The NFP promoters you are citing are using the monthly rate. The yearly rate is 20% of those using NFP become pregnant.
Wrong. “Frustrating the act” means your intention also. If you intend to use NFP to keep from pregnancy, then you have sinned in your intention … because you have used the tree of knowledge to prevent the will of God, in that His will might be for the pregnancy to happen. St Paul gives two choices, either sex or prayer. Do you have a problem praying during the hours when otherwise you would be given over to desire? Don’t you have enough faith in prayer? Maybe this is one way God has for you to develop your faith so that when the time comes you can choose God over all temptations. St Paul tells us that the only way to be faithful in big matters is to be faithful in small matters. Can you see what this means? If you cannot or do not want to practice denying yourself for the sake of Christ even in legitimate matters, then how do you expect to ever resist denying Christ when you are facing the world, the flesh or the devil? If you cannot pray when the temptation is easy, how do you expect to pray when it gets tough? Don’t kid yourselves by the worn out excuse that you will be given the grace at the time … gifts require preparation and not frustration. When you refuse to pick up your Cross and follow Jesus, then why would you expect to be given the grace later when you are being faced down by any of the three temptations presented to Christ by the devil?
Jesus has warned through His Word;
“For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear (2 Timothy 4:3).”
The sound doctrine with respect to licit marital relations is the encyclical, Casti Connubbi, and the unsound doctrine is, humanae vitae, written, I believe to placate the “itching ears” of married couples who do not want to follow Jesus and His Cross in their marriage, but rather to follow after the contraceptive mentality ways of the world.
Luke the Enlightener, are you traditionalist Catholic?
Sorry to disappoint you, but I am a normal Roman Catholic that follows the traditional teachings of the Catholic Church.
In light of the many scandals enveloping the Catholic Church today, you need to open your eyes to the fact that false teachers and their teachings do not represent the TRUE Church and, in fact, have helped to bring about these very scandals. Please HONESTLY ask, yourself; Would Jesus and Mary ever condone and support the teachings of these evil sexual education programs for children? Jesus clearly warned the Church about false teachers and their teachings. Obviously when this does come about, as prophesied by Jesus, these false teachings cannot represent the TRUE Church.
God Bless!
I’m not disappointed, I’m glad. Please pray over this. If you are married and are dealing with this issue, you are correct to follow your conscience.
I understood with what Luke is saying, long before I ever discovered the Latin Mass. Anon., why do you try to defile the Word of God by belittling it instead of understanding it? You come across as a child in a school yard hawking your wares instead of seeking the truth.
I read Humanae Vitae today, and what I find is not really a false teaching, but a device that allows those with false faith to take leave. It is a pruning hook. Vatican II serves as a means of getting rid of those with false faith. The weeds among the grain are being removed. As the “Sword of the Lord” is two edged, so is this Church rhetoric of recent decades. It serves as a crook to pull sheep into the fold and also as a staff to knock wolves out of the fold. It is a coin with Caesar on one side, and Jesus on the other. As Pope Paul VI says up front and repeats in a lot of different ways in Humanae Vitae, it is the time for individuals to exercise their faith without being told what to do every step. The training wheels are off and you’re on your free ride. Enter Bl JPII at this point explaining the nature of unique individual souls, and the name for each one which only Jesus knows but which you may learn … if you prove faithful. We are not a Church of slaves, but of free men … if you fail to exercise your freedom according to God’s will then too bad for you. Time to grow up.
” husband and wife, through that mutual gift of themselves, which is specific and exclusive to them alone, develop that union of two persons in which they perfect one another, cooperating with God in the generation and rearing of new lives”: from Humanae Vitae. The whole document is loaded with cautions that man alone is not sufficient to decide whether pregnancy should be avoided. This is what I said previously. And it is continuing to be ignored by most of the proponents of NFP, who in separating themselves from procreation also separate themselves from God. Ask why some posters always phrase things as if God is in the sky and man is on the earth. Then read Humanae Vitae and see that Pope Paul VI stridently, carefully, and often explains that we have to work out of our union with God. Thus he is telling us that, no, it is not the case that God is one place and we are somewhere else: Read Genesis and discover that early on, our ancestors were sometimes hiding in the bushes to avoid God, to separate themselves from God. This that they did was an act of destroying any kind of union that might have been in the offing.
The Church is perfect in Jesus Christ; however, throughout its history there have been human ecclesiastical leaders who have misled the faithful (e.g., selling of indulgences, the offensive Crusades, the German concordant; persecution of the Jews; the inquisitions; etc.). Judas was one of the original apostles and he was evil; he is a warning that there can be evil leaders present in the Church. If people choose to follow after false teachers in the Church who promote NFP and vile sexual education programs for children, of course they have no faith in Jesus Christ, do not represent the true Church, and will not be saved in that state without repentance (see Matthew 7:15; Matthew 24:11; Acts 20: 29-30; 2 Peter 2:1-2; 1 John 4:1; 2 Timothy 4:3).
The Church did not sell indulgences. The Crusades were wars against the Muslims-initailly to regain the Holy Land. If you do not know something is a sin, you are not guilty. The Church has said that NFP is OK. You cannot declare it a sin. The Catholic Church is infallible in matters of faith and morals. Your argument has been confusing. You seem to be saying it is OK to avoid a pregnancy by complete abstinence but not by partial abstinance?
Anonymous, thank you for posting the comment.
In respect to your question on Church teachings on faith and morals, please read Jesus’ warnings from Matthew 7:15; Matthew 24:11; Acts 20: 29-30; 2 Peter 2:1-2; 1 John 4:1; 2 Timothy 4:3. Next, the Church, through the popes, has only, twice, spoken infallibly on subjects regarding faith and morals: The Immaculate Conception (Pope Pius IX) and the Assumption (Pope Pius XII). Please read up on the doctrine of infallibility. We are to accept all other teachings of the Church as valid unless they contradict the MORAL teachings of Jesus Christ or contradict other VALID moral teachings of the Catholic Church. You have to use moral common sense and pray for guidance from the Holy Spirit. In this respect, Jesus directed his followers, through Paul; “TEST EVERYTHING. Hold on to the GOOD (I Thessalonians 5:21).”
Luke, “The Chuch has only spoken infallibly twice”? No.
k, here you go again, failing to understand what the blog actually says and says clearly. It does not say what you impute it to say, that there are only two infallible statements. Yes, one could isolate that one sentence by Luke and come to your fallacious conclusion; however, you could go to the trouble to read what he actually says, which is that there are only two occasions of infallible “new” doctrines pronounced by popes. These doctrines were always true, but these popes made these truths official by defining them ex cathedra.
Well said Anonymous.!!!!
Extremely unlikely that in most cases of NFP the couple is trying to get pregnant. The intent to interfere with conception is a sin, whether you use NFP or condoms or abortion. The Crusades were attempts to stop Islam, but the Crusades also caused the schism between east and west a thousand years ago … a sin of horrendous scale. The fact that the Church has repeatedly condemned the misuse of indulgences. Repeatedly because it is a problem, and one that has peaked in some eras. Martin Luther was able to use the public knowledge of the sin of selling indulgences to split the Church bigtime.
JLS. You say
‘Yes Extremely unlikely that in most cases of NFP (as you call it) the couple is trying to get pregnant, whether you use NFP or condoms or abortion. . The intent to interfere with conception is a sin.
Let me tell you’ that if a couple abstain from sexual intercourse when infertile’ in your mind must be a sin too! Is that what you mean?
Do you understand why the Lord made female fertile only approx; 5 days a month and a male all through his life up to old age.
If God wanted married couples to use the married act only when pregnant, He would surely have made females fertile always except when pregnant.
So in your reckoning, we ought only to use the married act when pregnant or after the menopause.
So if we wanted to space our family for 3 years and one could not breast feed, do you believe that is what married love is all about..
No, it is not what I’m saying, MHG. You should try addressing what I’m blogging instead of making up stuff and then assigning it to me, as a strawman, and then answering yourself with a canned pitch. Obviously you’ve never encountered what either I or Luke have been saying, and you’re trying to take the easy way out by answering other arguments instead, but yet pretending that you are replying to what Luke or I are saying. Strain your brain if you can, until you get it? Prayer instead of meditation on NFP would also help you.
Anonymous, you along with many others have been mislead by false teachers, just like the innocent Catholic children being taught vile sexual education courses by immoral Catholic adults. Jesus did not come to condemn sinners but to save them and He also said; “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me (John 14:6).” Jesus does not want His followers to live in blindness about sin as He came to set sinners free from it.
The purpose of my long comments on this blog is, through Jesus and his Word, to set you and others free from the grave sin of NFP and its negative moral consequences and that you would also be a light to the world in this regard. If, after you have read my comments and verified my arguments against NFP by studying the cited scripture passages and the contradictory encyclicals of Casti Connubbii and Humanae Vitae, you come to the realization that you (and others reading this) are engaging in an immoral practice, namely NFP, then if you continue in this practice, you are guilty of GRAVE SIN (according to the still effective and morally authoritative encyclical, Casti Connubbii). If you KNOWINGLY continue in this state, as with any GRAVE SIN unrepented of, you will not make it to heaven; as you will be morally culpable for committing this GRAVE SIN. Ultimately, God only knows what that ultimate outcome will be.
Please pray for guidance from the Holy Spirit on this issue (along with all moral issues) and also ask God to tell you why NFP is an immoral practice. If you are not saved because you do not have TRUE Faith in Jesus Christ, please admit to Jesus you are a sinner (we are all sinners until we die) and ask Jesus to show you that He died personally for your sins and admit that only through His grace that you can overcome your sins (including FNP — so you should actively pray for that grace). Moreover, the sacraments of the Catholic Church are fuel for your Faith in Jesus so please do not neglect them!
I don’t use NFP.
Who cares?
Luke the Enlightener, I cannot take your assesment of a “sin” over that of a Pope, the successor of Peter. “I will entrust to you the keys of the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you declare bound on earth shall be bound in heaven; whatever you declare loosed on earth shall be loosed in heaven.” Mt 16:19 Read again Humanae Vitae No 16. That is the official teaching of the Holy Catholic Church. You have no authority in the Church to declare NFP immoral. Luke, you could be anybody, but I’m pretty sure you are not Pope Benedict XVI-the only living person who could do that.
Luke, are you married? Have you married longer than two years? Do you have children?
I would be interested in hearing the answer to your questions, K.
Finally, anonymous, you correctly pointed out that I stated that married couples can licitly avoid pregnancy through complete abstinence from sexual relations (this is called continence when practiced by married couples), under exigent circumstances. However, this complete abstinence should only be for temporary periods of time since once the impediments to having additional children are removed, then continence should come to end so the married couple can have more children. Families obviously should have as many children as they possibly can as they are a blessing from GOD, according to scripture.
Continence is only legitimate if there are exceptional reasons for practicing continence; like preserving the health of the mother as she may need to recover her health from a previous pregnancy and birth of a baby or financial reasons since if a married couple cannot afford to have a large number of children, then very negative consequences could result to those children, such as starvation, disease, death, and having to turn some children over to orphanages (these negative things actually happened quite often, here, in the United States from the mid 1800s to the early 1900s). However, it should also be realized and emphasized that all children are welcome and should be loved no matter what circumstances the children are born under and abortion is never an option.
Anonymous, did you know that the rhythm method, which NFP developed into, was not discovered until 1930. This means the only known means for married couples to space children out before 1930 (besides immoral artificial birth control methods), was the use of continence. Hence, the only known effective natural means to space children out for married couples, from before Jesus’ time up until 1930, was through the practice of continence.
Also, as a side note, the Holy Family (Joseph and Mary) practiced continence, in order to preserve the perpetual virginity of the Blessed Virgin Mary (an exceptional circumstance).
God Bless!
So the abstinance in NFP is not what you have a problem with. It is having sexual relations when you would not want to get pregnant? Do you believe it is immoral to have sexual relations during a pregnancy? Do you believe it is immoral after a woman’s change? Or after a hysterectomy?
Luke the Enlightener, please would you let me know who you are receiving all this information from about the knowledge you claim to have on Fertility Awareness,and who it is that is telling you to judge married couples as to how many children they ought to have?
Bringing children up in the love and service of the Lord (hence the teachings of Holy Mother Church and Her guidance) is all a part of pro-creation.
The Sacrament of Matrimony is made for Love united with the Holy Trinity-not just a baby factory. A wonderful Gift from God!
I think you ought to leave decisions as to how many children parents have, as God gave us a free-will and you ought to respect that!
Oh and BTW, Our Blessed Mother was born to be Jesus’s mother, She has Her children Spiritually in us, as Jesus said on the Cross to St John!
In my ‘opinion’ like you have too- It would not have been Gods plan-as Jesus is God the 2nd person of the Blessed Trinity for Our Lady to have more children.
I am not saying this as an opinion but just a thought ‘how do you know if Our Blessed Mother didn’t know about fertility Awareness’?
We don’t know everything, that is why we have the Magisterium and not to listen to false teachers.
“I think you ought to leave decisions as to how many children parents have, as God gave us a free-will and you ought to respect that!”: MHGamble, free will means free to sin as well as free to follow God’s will. You’ve defined your theology as being what you prefer. However, according to revealed knowledge in Scripture, God prefers man put forth babies. Ask yourself why it took the entire time of man on earth until less than one century ago to come up with NFP. Do you really see yourself in the special generation, the one that finally God answered woman’s prayer for a means to minimize her number of pregnancies?
So, how do you discern false teachers from true teachers, MHGamble?
The Great Dragon stalks the “Woman with Child”, and no doubt accepts any help it can get … including NFP.
More so from false preachers! Like those who contradict the teachings of the Church.
Like yourself, MHG?
NFP could be misused by a couple to avoid children for selfish reasons.
“Could be”???!!!
k, is NFP so extremely popular because so many couples need it to get pregnant? Hey, would you like to buy the London Bridge? Just send your check to me, thanks.
JLS.
How do I discern false teachers from true teachers you ask?
Dont you know?
As to your comment above . ‘NFP extremely popular’ etc’ for getting pregnant and spacing.
Having taught both for 30 years I have enough experience to know that ,and letters and comments from clients.
Have you?
Couple have used IVF with no success and spent thousands of pounds Then got in touch with the Crighton Method and one couple are now on their third child.
Couples would not have given birth if they had not known their fertility, I have more children here, from teaching, some now getting married ( and 2 of my own plus 3 miscarriages and 5 grandchildren)
We ought not to knock something if we don’t know what we are speaking about!
I thank the Lord for this experience-and for the church for giving me the opportunity NOT to use contraception in all my 50 years of married life.(or single)
That is how I define Truth from false preachers.
I dont think London Bridge is for sale!
MHG, good that you’re sticking with the Church intention of producing children. If you’re good at it, stick with it. BTW, the London Bridge currently is located in Nevada, having been sold a few years ago. Maybe it is for sale now if the price were sufficient. You pretend to answer my challenge of how you discern truth from false but you do not actually explain your claim.
Anonymous. Thank you for your comment, I dont teach anymore now
I explained your question ‘why’ in a comment above.
‘Listening to the Churches teachings., not false prophets’
I did know that London Bridge had been sold! Just did not know it was for sale!!!.
BTW my reply was to JLS-but as you asked.
Popular? Less than 2% of Catholic women use it,
k Where did you get the statistics from.?
Mary Helena Gamble, the statistics come from the National Survey of Family Growth. I think it done by the CDC.
Give me your address. How much do you want for it?
All information for NFP is free-of charge-it doesn’t cost a penny!
k, Thank you for that info-sorry for the misunderstanding I thought you were charging for it-I think you may have been speaking about JLC’s comment for the London Bridge.
What is the CDC?
Mary, yes, I might buy the bridge if he pays the shipping. CDC is Center for Disease Control. It is in Atlanta. It’s the government agency that monitors infections and other health concerns.
Yep, the old “first one is free” routine; doesn’t cost a dime but later it’ll cost you your soul.
Then that is their conscience. We have no right to judge.
‘Judge not and you shall not be judged’
Holy Mother Church teaches that it should not be used indiscrimentely
We don’t drive over red traffic lights, that doesn’t mean it is wrong to have them there..
Wrong. Jesus tells us to judge. That verse says that if you do not judge then you won’t be judged … so if you are not judged, then how do you know you have a log or splinter in your eye that has to be removed? Also in Revelation, we are informed that it is up to us to discern what is true and what is false. People who hide their Catholicism under bushel baskets do nothing to help themselves or the Kingdom of Heaven.
JLS It is wonderful to be so perfect. How do you do it? Tell me please!
Who do you follow to find the Truth.?
And also to read the mind of others.
I would really love to know.
Then I can be perfect too. No need anymore for the Sacrament of Confession.
Jesus tells us to “be perfect even as the Father is perfect”. If you need to know, then you should pray for it. You do not understand about “perfection” and the Sacraments. There is plenty written on these topics, so if you still do not get it, then you need to pray for it. Faith and reason, MHG, is the ticket. You have to find out what God has for you and be happy with that. If you want what God has given me, then you’re not going to get it. If you prefer to live on an island then why are you clamoring on a blog? Everyone of God’s souls is unique and individual … find out who you are from Jesus. Again, you will need to pray for this knowledge.
Big difference between discernment and judgement. St. Francis de Sales said that “there is no difference between an intoxicated person and one who is full of his own judgement.”
Can you explain what this means, Anon.?
JLS, I answered you by giving the entire quote but it did not appear here. Copyright issues?
So, Anon., you admit that you cannot explain it, and cop out by claiming to have sent a quote from someone else … figures.
It may be time to put this one to bed. We really don’t need these types of articles to get a full two ro three weeks of comments. All we need to do is have one section for SEX, another for GAY, and another for BISHOP. Everything else is of little interest to the folks on this site. It is not a bad thing, but I mean, come on folks. There is so much more to be concerned about. Only about 2% of Catholics use NFP and they use it as a way to prevent conception. The rest use the “pilll” or condoms. Otherwise, the average family at church on Sunday would not be 2.5 kids. For most people, the purpose of sex is not to have kids. It is to have sex. There, I said it! I haven’t seen an article about that awful priest at EWTN who accused all the young boys of seducing the priest into abusing them. That could really get a disucssion gong.
Why, Bob One? Because your NFP party is being blown away by the truth?
Bob One, the issue about EWTN’s Fr. Benedict Groeschell has been covered, although briefly. He recently suffered a stroke, and this likely has left him at the mercy of his professional discipline of psychology … a discipline which can go haywire very easily. This of course is not everyone’s view. And, yes, it would be a good thing to explore this topic extensively … the topic of blaming the seduction on the boys instead of on the priests. The Church does not want such men in the clergy, and they should pack up and leave as well as be thrown out asap.
JLS.
In answer to your above comment. on the 2nd Just one question.
What has God given to you?
Your blogs?
JLS.
Thank you, I am pleased God has given you my blogs I take that as a compliment!
The Pontifical Council for the Family. Signed by Cardinal Gagnon 1989.
in order to promote greater appreciation and deeper understanding of the teaching of the Church on the natural regulation of fertility .
1. Encourage medical faculties and bio-medical research institutes etc.
2 encourage marriage counsellors to acquire experiise so as to advise couples to practice natural regulations of birth.
3. urge married Christians to reflect on the good they can do for others by spreading the method by word and witness.
and much much more- etc.
Now you have it from the horses mouth. Our duty.
The subject is 10 reasons to use NFP. That is why I am on this. blog.
This is what everyone should read.
BTW. The historical developement the KAHUN papyrus written 1900BC. contained formulas for achieving and avoiding a pregnancy.
So whats new!!
I wrote this is full but obviously it was too long.